Silly RAW Question: Spending XP now for XP-cost events in character's history?

[Lord Pendragon]

Would you then say that any high-level PC created in your game who has item creation feats and doesn't pay such a cost has, essentially, never created a magic item? Because that, to me, is an unreasonable claim.

That's the nature of the beast. When you're creating a high-level character, you get to ignore the fact that such a character might not have survived up to the level they are. The wizard gets to ignore Toughness, the fighter never has to buy a suit of normal full plate before he can afford the adamantine full plate. And yes, the wizard never has to craft a single scroll.

But if you decide to have him craft, for whatever reason, you pay that xp. You're still going to have more xp than you should, since you really would have had to craft a heck of a lot more scrolls to get to where you are.

I would pick on the Artificer here, but she has a Craft Reserve, so let's imagine some kind of Prestige Class that's centered around item creation -- you don't have to have created an item to enter it, but you must possess an item creation feat. Someone creates a wizard that starts with the current XP that you give. Obviously, she must have done some item creation at some point -- else how would the class make sense for the character? But exactly how much XP are you going to charge for these undefined items which have been created?

None. I disagree that having a feat means you need to use it. I currently have a bard who (unfortunately, boy did I mess up his choices,) has Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack and never uses them. I have a Paladin who's never used Power Attack (took it to pick up Divine Might). Having a feat does not mean you must have used it. But if you do use it, you pay the price.

I also fail to understand how it's a free use of XP -- if you like, I can assign a gp cost to it and pay that cost in terms of Wealth.

This, actually, is a point I must have missed up above. I don't think I'd allow it, though. The PrC specifically demands crafting, which demands xp. Not gold.

Still, on the other side of that, as I said in my previous post, I'd be willing to simply give the other PCs a small bit of bonus xp to offset this entire problem. So my argument here is more theoretical, based on the fact that I do believe you need to pay the xp of any xp-requiring feat/ability you have.

I also have yet to see anyone explain why XP and gp are somehow substantially different in terms of being affected by back history. Scribing scrolls is almost part and parcel with being a wizard -- that's why you get the feat for free. It's not like you're going to calculate room and board for every single character since birth and deduct it from their Wealth, and neither should you do the same with XP. You spend money and earn it back; similarly, you can spend XP and earn it back (see previous posts on this subject), so that it all evens out by the end.

Yes, scribing scrolls is part and parcel of being a wizard. So is having less xp than the rest of the party. I created a 12th-level wizard/loremaster in a pickup game a little while ago. He had Craft Wondrous Item, and boy did I ever use it. And I paid the xp for that. Scribe Scroll is no different.

As a last note, I understand the point you are making. No, your character isn't still benefitting from the scribed scroll. It's not like a scroll of Wish used to gain an inherent bonus, nor is it like crafting a +6 Headband of Intellect. However, it's still item creation that has a set cost, and that's still one point of xp less you should have, compared to the other PCs.

Have you talked with your DM? Is he unwilling to just grant the whole party +5 xp? It seems the simplest solution...

 

[Timeboxer]

I was going to say something about how, at least in terms of backstory (since that's really the issue here), it would make no sense to have a Level 20 Fighter who has never actually fought anything, but I think I don't have that much of a leg to stand on here.

However:

This, actually, is a point I must have missed up above. I don't think I'd allow it, though. The PrC specifically demands crafting, which demands xp. Not gold.

Again: Wealth is not actual gold, it's worth which is measured in gold. Thus, no actual gold is being "paid" -- the item is worth that much in gold. I did spend the 1 XP making it in the past, but that doesn't actually necessarily have any bearing on the current XP total. Note also that it doesn't say "Must have spent XP on crafting an item," but rather that you must have crafted an item. So: I was given 105,000 XP to work with; I created an item; this 1 XP discrepancy is offset in my current state by a commensurate Wealth allocation (the full price of the item I created counts toward my Wealth).

However, it's still item creation that has a set cost, and that's still one point of xp less you should have, compared to the other PCs.

Well, again, see above on why it's important to determine exactly when you scribed the scroll, as it makes a difference as to how much XP you really have. See also above on why focusing on the minutiae of backstory can be silly.

And, to be honest, I think that it's a double standard to say that the XP given somehow represents a pool that historical item creation leeches away from, while the Wealth given is a representation of your current financial standing. If you're not willing to abstract away having spent and made 1 XP on scribing a worthless scroll, then I also think that a character who, in her history, had a bad experience with undead should have the money for a Restoration taken away from her Wealth. But starting on this road would mean that the characters would have an arbitrary amount of Wealth taken away from them due to resources spent on every hypothetical encounter they allegedly went on -- and when does it stop?

Which is more or less what I'm getting at. I think it's silly to insist that everything you've ever created is subtracted from your current XP, because I see no reason why allocated XP and Wealth aren't of the same nature -- that is, that they measure your current standing rather than being liquid and spendable. Your character history should not influence this standing; it should inform this standing. Being an item crafter doesn't mean I should lose XP; rather, it explains where the items I possess came from. If you want to give me less XP because of my back history, even if it's 1 XP less, this is an entirely different matter from suggesting that I am spending it.

Have you talked with your DM? Is he unwilling to just grant the whole party +5 xp? It seems the simplest solution...

He is -- admittedly, I'm the only person in the entire party -- but he wants to run a Rules as Written game. His claim is that it's perfectly clear that the rules require a certain methodology to be followed, but I think that the rules are far less clear and simple on this than could be desired.

My point is that while people such as yourself might disagree, even taken literally the rules are not that clear-cut. It's up to a GM ruling, ultimately, but this isn't as simple as, say, determining save DCs for Fireball.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Again: Wealth is not actual gold, it's worth which is measured in gold. Thus, no actual gold is being "paid" -- the item is worth that much in gold. I did spend the 1 XP making it in the past, but that doesn't actually necessarily have any bearing on the current XP total. Note also that it doesn't say "Must have spent XP on crafting an item," but rather that you must have crafted an item. So: I was given 105,000 XP to work with; I created an item; this 1 XP discrepancy is offset in my current state by a commensurate Wealth allocation (the full price of the item I created counts toward my Wealth).

I disagree. Wealth is measured in a gp value. Wealth does not have any connection to xp, save that there are guidelines for how much wealth you should have at any given level, which is itself xp-dependent, and on the fact that xp can be purchased. One might assume it can be sold as well, though that fact doesn't help your case.

Your argument is based on an abstraction of what is not, in the rules as written, an abstract concept (one of the few that isn't, really.) Wealth is defined in gp. XP determine your level. They are two seperate pools, which can both be spent in character creation on gear, levels, and item creation. But you can't just shift values back and forth between the two.

Well, again, see above on why it's important to determine exactly when you scribed the scroll, as it makes a difference as to how much XP you really have.

I read it, and disagree with it.

See also above on why focusing on the minutiae of backstory can be silly.

Sure it can, but that doesn't mean you can write in free goodies.

And, to be honest, I think that it's a double standard to say that the XP given somehow represents a pool that historical item creation leeches away from, while the Wealth given is a representation of your current financial standing. If you're not willing to abstract away having spent and made 1 XP on scribing a worthless scroll, then I also think that a character who, in her history, had a bad experience with undead should have the money for a Restoration taken away from her Wealth.

If this bad experience with Undead is nothing but flavor, I'd suggest (and allow) the player write in a benevolent cleric who cast Restoration on him for free. If it is a requirement for a PrC (such as Hunter of the Dead,) then yes, I'd subtract for the casting of the spell.

But starting on this road would mean that the characters would have an arbitrary amount of Wealth taken away from them due to resources spent on every hypothetical encounter they allegedly went on -- and when does it stop?

I rule it fairly simple. If there's a gain, there's a cost. Fulfilling a PrC requirement that demands xp is a gain, hense there's a cost.

Being an item crafter doesn't mean I should lose XP; rather, it explains where the items I possess came from. If you want to give me less XP because of my back history, even if it's 1 XP less, this is an entirely different matter from suggesting that I am spending it.

You are spending it. Item Creation consists of spending xp to get items. I really don't understand why this is so difficult? You write "being an item crafter doesn't mean I should lose XP"...but that's what Item Creation is.

Note that this issue doesn't just stop with your backstory. Say you start the campaign and find yourself in a tiny little hamlet in the middle of nowhere. There's nowhere to buy any magical gear. Will you then press your DM to allow you to "create" magic items, paying full market price but no XP?

You want to completely circumvent the Item Creation mechanic, which IMC would not be allowed.

He is -- admittedly, I'm the only person in the entire party -- but he wants to run a Rules as Written game. His claim is that it's perfectly clear that the rules require a certain methodology to be followed, but I think that the rules are far less clear and simple on this than could be desired.

The rules on Item Creation are clear (or at least the rules on scribing scrolls. ) I'm not sure if creating characters at above 1st-level is outlined in the rules or not...

My point is that while people such as yourself might disagree, even taken literally the rules are not that clear-cut. It's up to a GM ruling, ultimately, but this isn't as simple as, say, determining save DCs for Fireball.

Definitely not as simple as determining the save DCs for Fireball.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I disagree. Wealth is measured in a gp value. Wealth does not have any connection to xp, save that there are guidelines for how much wealth you should have at any given level, which is itself xp-dependent, and on the fact that xp can be purchased. One might assume it can be sold as well, though that fact doesn't help your case.

Actually, they are more related than that. The GP value per level is designed to include the actual wealth that you have at each level. If you are level 5 and have x GP, it is NOT the GP that you've accumulated ever since 1st level. It is instead how much you have left after buying and using one shot magic items, dying, paying to get resurrected, and having things stolen from your backpack while you sleep.

The table for how much wealth you GAIN each level shows this. You actually get more wealth than you should in order to be at the base GP value for your next level.

Now, since the only reason this is being down is to qualify for a PrC, I'd only have to look at how much I thought the game balance was going to be ruined by letting you qualify for the class, essentially "free"....I doubt it's enough to care, as it is 1 XP.

 

[Timeboxer]

Your argument is based on an abstraction of what is not, in the rules as written, an abstract concept (one of the few that isn't, really.) Wealth is defined in gp. XP determine your level. They are two seperate pools, which can both be spent in character creation on gear, levels, and item creation.

Hmm. Based on a close textual reading ("assign an experience point total for them to use" for multiclassing purposes), I am forced to agree that XP is in fact a spendable pool. But as for Wealth:

"Equip the character.... Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level (page 135) shows the total value of a player character's gear at a given level. This value includes mundane items described in Chapter 7 of the Player's Handbook, but the bulk of it, especially at higher levels, is composed of magic items. See Magic Items as Gear, below, for advice on how to govern what sort of magic items a PC can buy with this wealth. Note that these values apply only to player characters."

While the word "buy" is used, it's clear that an actual monetary exchange in gp terms isn't what it means; Wealth is not liquid. You're allotted a certain amount of Wealth, the total value of your gear, and the worth of your gear must not exceed that value.

But you can't just shift values back and forth between the two.

I probably wasn't entirely clear before. I'm not actually "paying" for the 1 XP using excess Wealth, as if I never lost it and spent money instead. Rather, the Wealth accounts for the 1 XP loss, since they are of equivalent value.

Or for a different angle: As I said, a self-created magic item can have its worth measured in two ways. Given the definition of Wealth cited above, it appears that you should be able to choose in which way you wish to measure it. If you wish to limit your player's options in this way, fine, but nothing explicitly requires you to choose one over the other.

Sure it can, but that doesn't mean you can write in free goodies.

Remember, it's not free.

If this bad experience with Undead is nothing but flavor, I'd suggest (and allow) the player write in a benevolent cleric who cast Restoration on him for free. If it is a requirement for a PrC (such as Hunter of the Dead,) then yes, I'd subtract for the casting of the spell.I rule it fairly simple. If there's a gain, there's a cost. Fulfilling a PrC requirement that demands xp is a gain, hense there's a cost.

I think I'd be somewhat upset if I made a character all primed to have levels of some kind of prestige class that requires that you "Must have survived taking an exotic instant-death potion," and the GM told me that I had to actually roll the Fortitude saves for it. And then if I rolled a natural 1, he would say, "Oh, tough luck. You die. Care to roll up a new character?"

But that, I think, isn't an entirely consistent ruling, in the sense that the exact same event results in a penalty for one character and no penalty for another, and inconsistency bugs me. It is, as I said, a GM call, but I would be loath to suggest that such a ruling is or should be the standard for this reason.

You write "being an item crafter doesn't mean I should lose XP"...but that's what Item Creation is.

If it makes you feel better, I could always say that someone else was paying the XP cost, while I paid the raw materials cost and performed the daily castings that went into the item. Which is a valid method of co-crafting magic items, I believe. But I think this wouldn't fit into the strict definition of "magic item crafting" that you define.

Though what I meant was that in terms of history, being an item crafter doesn't necessarily mean that you should lose XP for it. You obviously should spend XP for an item that you craft in the present, and obviously you have spent XP for crafting an item in the past, but I don't see that this actually needs to come out of your current XP pool unless you have a usable item which represents that XP; after all, it's more than likely that that XP was made back. You may not like the idea that someone who spent XP on an item a long time ago may have caught up and even gotten ahead, but this is where consistency rears its ugly head again...

Note that this issue doesn't just stop with your backstory. Say you start the campaign and find yourself in a tiny little hamlet in the middle of nowhere. There's nowhere to buy any magical gear. Will you then press your DM to allow you to "create" magic items, paying full market price but no XP?

I would be doubtful about even getting raw materials at that point. But I contend that it does stop with my backstory, because, firstly, I define my backstory while the GM defines the scenario that I play in, and secondly, the entire backstory is distilled, in game terms, into some XP quantity and some Wealth value. One's actual backstory does not matter, in actual game terms, I think, as far as the RAW is concerned, and its main use is explaining why you are the way you are now. There's no section that explains how to convert elements of backstory to actual gameplay changes, and I see no need to add one, really.

The rules on Item Creation are clear (or at least the rules on scribing scrolls. )

Except for that whole Caster Level Prerequisite mess. >.>

I'm not sure if creating characters at above 1st-level is outlined in the rules or not...

Creating characters above 1st-level is outlined in the rules, and it involves an award of XP and allowing the character to equip herself using the Wealth value for her level. But it really isn't clear on what the XP and gp "awarded" actually mean. It says that you "can use" the XP and gp for item creation, but what this actually signifies (items you own now? items you used to own? items you've made but used?) isn't specified. It does use the present tense ("can use... [in order] to make magic items"), which suggests to me that the actual act of item creation would take place just before or at the beginning of the game, or at least in such a way as to allow the use of the item during the game proper.

And now I am so going to bed.

 

[green slime]

I'll start by saying, I do the same thing as a DM. When creating characters of a higher starting level, I assign a certain amount of gold and xp to the characters with which they can fit themselves out.

Why battle it out all the nitty gritty details of background blow-by-blow?

The recommended wealth level is not a table showing how much wealth a character has seen flow through his fingers over his lifetime; it is supposed to be a reflection of the current state of affairs. Dito XP. But if you start with the item, you have paid full price, or created it (and therefore paid the XP).

The DM appears to be obtuse. On the other hand, I find that if you are going to be 1 xp behind for past activities, you may as well be 10,000 xp behind: Start mass producing items; your resources in gold will stretch that much further.

 

[Korak]

ok, two things

1. OMG?!?! It is really blowing my mind, the amount of energy that has gone into a quibble about 1 xp. However... I think I can shed some light on the issue.


2. The light.

Amy, it appears that you are viewing the starting xp and gp in too much the same way. In terms of creating a character at higher than first level, your reading and perception of character wealth is on the money, so to speak. The values listed on the table in the DMG represent the current value of the character's possesions.

The problem comes in because you are trying to view xp in the same way. That is not how the RAW work. The DM will give a certain xp total for each character to work with. This DOES NOT represent their current total, but rather, the sum of all the xp they have earned to date in their whole adventuring career. From this total, you may pay item creation costs, have peramanent spells pre-cast on yourself, or take any other xp reduction allowed in the rules for whatever corresponding benefit (or lack of benefit) it provides. That is the difference.

The gp total is a statement of current status.

The xp total is the total earned ever by the character to be created.

The reason why those are handled separately, and differently, is that there are so very few things that can take away from the xp total that they may be easily accounted for. However, it would be beyond cumbersome to redo the gp table values to reflect total earned in an adventuring career and then have the players account for all the upkeep, and gear iterations, and losses to resale value, etc. etc. Furthermore, there is no mechanic for non-crafters to spend their xp for benefit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If it makes you feel better, I could always say that someone else was paying the XP cost, while I paid the raw materials cost and performed the daily castings that went into the item. Which is a valid method of co-crafting magic items, I believe.

Well, yes and no.

One of the people involved is 'the creator'; it is 'the creator' who pays the XP cost.

So if you've never paid the XP cost, you've never created a magic item; you've merely supplied prerequisites for someone who has created an item.

-Hyp.

 

[Staffan]

I think I'm missing something. How, exactly, is a person getting MORE experience just because they're a lower level?

In 3.5e, XP is awarded on an individual basis. Let's say I'm a 5th level character, and the other three party members are 6th level. We beat up some poor Hill Giant (CR 7). I get 3,000/4 = 750 XP, while they each get 2,700/4 = 675 XP.

 

[Staffan]

That's the nature of the beast. When you're creating a high-level character, you get to ignore the fact that such a character might not have survived up to the level they are. The wizard gets to ignore Toughness, the fighter never has to buy a suit of normal full plate before he can afford the adamantine full plate. And yes, the wizard never has to craft a single scroll.

The wealth guidelines include a "fudge factor" for expendables and upkeep, I believe. For example, a 5th level PC should have about 9,000 gp, and a 6th level one 13,000. During this time, he should have gotten the equivalent of 3.33 "average" EL 5 treasures (13.33 encounters for the whole party divided by 4) = 3.33*1,600 = 5,300 gp (rounded a bit). Added to the 9,000 you start with, that's 14,300 gp - where does the remaining 1,300 go? That's for expendables, and because some of the stuff you get can't be used and has to be unloaded at half price, and so on.