D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Stalker0]

The other divide this spell gives is the classic "1-2 fights vs 6-8 fights players".

For players that do the full 6-8 fights commonly, barbs is probably going to be a solid but not OP addition. Afterall, these spellcasters are well taxed on spell slots, so the extra usage of spells is going to be felt.

Meanwhile, the party's that nova more often because they face fewer but more powerful enemies....those people are going to lap this spell up, as its basic just a pure power boost to them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So, if Monks burn through LR, and Barbs is about the same speed, what does that say about Barbs?

It's nothing like as fast. As pointed out, it cannot force someone to use legendary resistance twice. Generally, my casters have their save DCs pumped up high, so they go through LR at the rate they can cast spells - one per turn. Silvery Barbs only makes a difference if the target initially makes it's save, which is rare.

Meanwhile, in the same time, the monk has forced the target to make three saves - based on experience, they also rarely miss.

 

[ECMO3]

I've been playing a character with healing word for a while now. I think I've cast it maybe twice.

It provides a piddling amount of hit points, so the only really good use for it is when another PC is down. But in that situation, I am generally reaching for the big guns; the encounter is going badly and I need something to turn it around posthaste. And thanks to the bonus action spellcasting rules, healing word and big guns are incompatible. It's one or the other.

If you are not finding healing word useful then either you are playing solo or your DM is not making combats very hard.

If the fallen PC has something that can turn things around, and if they get a turn before the monsters smack them back down, healing word can be the right spell. But those are two big "ifs." The other scenario I'd use it is when I have no big guns left to fire. But that's always a desperation play--I'm much more careful with my resources than the other players in my group, so if I'm low on gas, they're flat empty.

This is completely false. There is an element of truth to this if you use cure wounds to bring back a PC, but healing word is a bonus action cast and this is just wrong.

Even if the enemy goes in initiative before the player you just brought back, the must use an action to down him again. In this case, you are trading your bonus for an enemy action ... and this is the worst case. If the enemy misses with his attack or if the initiative is favorable the party gets additional actions on top of that.

The spell also resets death saves to 0 for a bonus action, which in itself is no small feat.

Healing word seems great in a white room. In actual play, I get far more use out of dissonant whispers and faerie fire.

If you play RAW and players are allowed to abuse healing word IAW RAW then it is hands down more powerful than these two. We have had a cleric in our party bring back a single character 4 times in a single battle, only to have him get downed again every time, but doing that crushed the enemy on action economy.

Now if you start playing Matt Mercer rules on being downed, then sure it is less powerful.

 

[Stalker0]

Effective against roughly 30% of monsters, so not too niche and against those monsters it is FAR, FAR better for a 1st levels slot.

Its also only protects one person AND requires concentration. Its very hard to look at a concentration spells as "top tier" just because it denies you access to so many other spells.

Then you are not playing it right. My 13th level Ranger (who is not a life cleric) typically starts the day with 110 hps worth of goodberrys and NO spell slots used. It could be less or even zero if it was a tough day prior, but often it is the full 110.

Are you casting the spell the night before and then using them before the 24 hr timer runs out? Is that what you mean?

Even if you cast it once after every battle and then suicidally send your familiar into the first combat the very next fight it is still going to give you as much as barbs will, as it will at the very minimum cause 1 advantage and 1 lost enemy action/attack to kill it. That is the flat minimum from using the spell exclusively for combat and it is equivalent to barbs. It only goes up from there.

What I meant with this spell is that since find familiar is normally cast on a previous day (and is a ritual), its not really competing on spell slots with other spells. So I don't really see it as an "either/or"....I would happily have both!

Most of the spells I listed above are better and if you use your reaction on your turn to make a save reroll and IF it suceeds (a big IF) your god wizard is going to usually get pummeled and lose his concentration because he has no reaction left for shield or absorb elements. These two spells, more than any others, are essential to the "god wizard".

You are also assuming shield is automatic. Yes a +5 to AC is a big boost, but it in no way guarantees the wizard won't be hit. And absorb elements, sure it takes out half the damage....but you still have to make a concentration check. Meanwhile guess what helps with that concentration check....silvery barbs. You can apply the boost to yourself afterall, so if the enemy does force you to make a save, you can reroll it if you need to. And if you don't....well you have a whole minute to apply it to another concentration save should you need it.

At the end of the day, offense trumps defense. If a wizard is focusing their spell slots on defense and healing instead of controlling and killing...they are just going to be less effective. The best healed damage is the damage you never take. The best defense is the monster never attacking in the first place.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I find it's the ranged cast of Healing Word that makes the difference in battle. Having to move adjacent to the downed character is prohibitive. Cure Wounds is for out of combat use only.

 

[ECMO3]

The other divide this spell gives is the classic "1-2 fights vs 6-8 fights players".

For players that do the full 6-8 fights commonly, barbs is probably going to be a solid but not OP addition. Afterall, these spellcasters are well taxed on spell slots, so the extra usage of spells is going to be felt.

Meanwhile, the party's that nova more often because they face fewer but more powerful enemies....those people are going to lap this spell up, as its basic just a pure power boost to them.

But if you are going Nova a 1st level spell with a reroll and advantage doesn't do "Nova". It is a minor benifit that a Rogue can get half of as a bonus action with no slot or a diviner can get a better effect twice a day for free.

I do agree that there is more use of Barbs for 1-2 fight parties, but it is not a nova spell.

 

[Stalker0]

If you play RAW and players are allowed to abuse healing word IAW RAW then it is hands down more powerful than these two. We have had a cleric in our party bring back a single character 4 times in a single battle, only to have him get downed again every time, but doing that crushed the enemy on action economy.

One thing we do have to note on healing word. At 5+ level, healing word does become a lot stronger, as yes I would not expect a single monster to take down a PC in one round.

But 1-4 levels, PCs are still fragile. If a PC with little health left takes a good hit from a monster.... there is a solid chance they will just die outright, so if they are wading into combat believing healing word will save them....they are really rolling the dice on death.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You are also assuming shield is automatic. Yes a +5 to AC is a big boost, but it in no way guarantees the wizard won't be hit.

If the +5 isn't enough to guarantee a miss, then the caster doesn't cast shield - they get hit, but they save the slot.

And it's usually EKs using shield in my experience, wizards aren't dumb enough to stand where they will get hit.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

there is a solid chance they will just die outright,

I take it you haven't played 5e. It take 8 hp to down a 1st level wizard, and 16 to kill them outright. Very few monsters within that CR band are capable of doing 16 hp damage in one hit unless they crit.

More commonly, the monsters have multiattack, and so whittle down hp gradually, and therefore never kill outright unless they attack downed characters.

 

[abirdcall]

The other divide this spell gives is the classic "1-2 fights vs 6-8 fights players".

For players that do the full 6-8 fights commonly, barbs is probably going to be a solid but not OP addition. Afterall, these spellcasters are well taxed on spell slots, so the extra usage of spells is going to be felt.

Meanwhile, the party's that nova more often because they face fewer but more powerful enemies....those people are going to lap this spell up, as its basic just a pure power boost to them.

I think it's the opposite actually.

Barbs is a way to multiply the power of your higher level slots. A level 7+ Wizard can cast Barbs a lot of times per long rest. A level 9 Wizard for example can cast it 11 times with only 1st and 2nd level slots plus Recovery. That is almost twice per encounter with a 6 encounter day. Assuming not all 6-8 are combat encounters that is pretty much just twice per combat or 2 out of 3 rounds of each combat.

This is not only to duplicate their own spells but the powers and spells of the party as well. That is also 11 times they grant advantage on saving throws for themselves and their party.