D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[NotAYakk]

I'm sorry, if your argument is based on fighting CR 25 foes at 13th level to show if something is useful or not, then I ain't engaging.

Sure you can do that fight and reason about it, but the results don't tell you anything useful about the spell being good or not. Unless it is an auto win.

 

[abirdcall]

The issue is that you said Silvery Barbs is on par with 4th level spells. Really hard to take that level of hyperbole seriously.

I said that I wouldn't mind using it in a 4th level slot in the right circumstance. That isn't hyperbole. If it was a 4th level spell and for whatever reason I had it on my spells known I would sometimes cast it and it would be good. If I cast Banishment and it was saved against casting Barbs in a 4th level slot is a better use of that slot than Banishment was.

I said it is not only the best 1st level spell but also better than all 2nd level spells too. And that is true.

If creating this spell has to be in the game (and it shouldn't be, the whole idea is bad) then 3rd level is right for it.

And it's not because it can be used against attack rolls.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm sorry, if your argument is based on fighting CR 25 foes at 13th level to show if something is useful or not, then I ain't engaging.

Sure you can do that fight and reason about it, but the results don't tell you anything useful about the spell being good or not. Unless it is an auto win.

The claim was it was OP and great against a Legendary enemy. That is why I used a legendary enemy from a published adventure, and in that adventure you face him when you are level 13. After I showed you how futile it was on the last post (while even forgetting about MR) then you said I used the wrong spell and should have used Psychic Lance.

FWIW, my party of four 13th level characters, along with an NPC, fought and defeated Bel 2 weeks ago and my Bladesinger lost 8hps total in that fight. The rest of the party did not fare as well, but we were all alive at the end of the fight.

Bottom Line: SB is a good and versatile spell, but it is not overpowered as many claim, getting it primarily to force rerolled saves is not as powerful as many think and as I illustrated above, in this respect it actually scales WORSE than many other low level spells.

 

[Captain Panda]

I'm sorry, if your argument is based on fighting CR 25 foes at 13th level to show if something is useful or not, then I ain't engaging.

Sure you can do that fight and reason about it, but the results don't tell you anything useful about the spell being good or not. Unless it is an auto win.

The problem with using any specific fight as an example is that either side can cherry pick niche situations to support their side. Silvery Barbs could be made to look really amazing if you're up against something that targets one creature with one huge attack or saving throw and Silvery Barbs is assumed to make the difference between, say, a Catoblepas insta-killing a level 4 character or them making the save.

And sure, in that situation against a Catoblepas using a death beam? I absolutely want Silvery Barbs, not Shield. It's just that the people who are calling for bans here seem to be assuming it will always be that useful.

Consider a different but equally plausible enemy for a group at level 4: 12 giant poisonous snakes. Making any one saving throw or attack roll go the way you want? Not going to change the trajectory of the fight at all. This fight easily favors the Shield spell.

Which spell is useful depends entirely on the situation, but here's my main point: it's not clearly better than Shield, or Absorb Elements. There are very common situations where you'd want one or the other of those way more. There are situations where you'd want Silvery Barbs more. That's how it should work. If the spell was second level... honestly, I'm just wondering what second level spells you people are picking, because now it's competing with Suggestion and Web, spells that dramatically change the course of a fight, not just one key roll.

 

[Stalker0]

Heightened metamagic does it for about the same price, without costing a reaction (and I keep repeating myself, but reactions for casters get more and more valuable as you level up). Eloquence bards can do it with a bonus action and a bardic inspiration, which is cheaper. Divination and Chronurgy wizards both get ways to force things to fail rather than just use a reaction to increase chances of failure.

I feel like this argument proves the point.

We now have 1st level spells providing benefits similar to major class/subclass features. Further, all of these abilities STACK with SB. Its not an either/or scenario.....I can layer them both on top for even MOAR POWA!!

 

[ECMO3]

We now have 1st level spells providing benefits similar to major class/subclass features. Further, all of these abilities STACK with SB. Its not an either/or scenario.....I can layer them both on top for even MOAR POWA!!

What? None of those abilities stack with SB! You can't stack them at all. Portent must be used before a roll, does not stack. Chronogy uses a reaction and therefore can't be stacked since you only have 1 reaction. Unsettling words affects the next save an enemy makes. This means it can't stack with SB because he has to succeed on the save to get the trigger to use SB.

Those things are mostly done without a reaction, they are not "major class features". They are generally available at level 2-3, are mostly more powerful than SB and don't use a spell slot.

You also did not read what he said. You ignored the part about "reactions for casters get more and more valuable as you level up"

 

[abirdcall]

I feel like this argument proves the point.

We now have 1st level spells providing benefits similar to major class/subclass features. Further, all of these abilities STACK with SB. Its not an either/or scenario.....I can layer them both on top for even MOAR POWA!!

Yeah and let's just take a closer look at one of the examples - Heightened Metamagic.

• It costs a Metamagic option
• It costs 3 Sorcery Points
• The points must be spent before the enemy creature makes the Saving Throw
• It only works on spells you cast
• It only works on the initial Saving Throw of a spell
• It doesn't also give the PC or ally advantage on one of their own Saving Throws

Now let's take a look at the Psionic Sorcerer. They can spend 1 Sorcery Point and a Reaction to cast Silvery Barbs. It costs 1/3 as many resources as Heightened Spell and is far stronger.

 

[Stalker0]

What? None of those abilities stack with SB! You can't stack them at all. Portent must be used before a roll, does not stack. Chronogy uses a reaction and therefore can't be stacked since you only have 1 reaction. Unsettling words affects the next save an enemy makes. This means it can't stack with SB because he has to succeed on the save to get the trigger to use SB.

Those things are mostly done without a reaction, they are not "major class features". They are generally available at level 2-3, are mostly more powerful than SB and don't use a spell slot.

Portent and Chronology is fair, those don't stack directly.

Unsettling Words....if the bardic roll doesn't give you enough juice to make the save fail, then you activate SB, so they stack.


And sure those class features are available at 2-3 level....but a lot of major class features are available early. Action Surge is available at 2nd level, all main cleric channel divinities are received at 2nd. And yes they don't require a spell slot....making them rarer than SB can be.

 

[jgsugden]

A really solid and highly recommended approach for addressing balance issues - wait to see something actually be problematic in play before you make adjustments to it. Until you see the problem be problematic in play, you don't know whether your assessment is missing things.

I would not consider making a change until I'd seen this spell used for 5 to 10 sessions.

 

[Captain Panda]

Yeah and let's just take a closer look at one of the examples - Heightened Metamagic.

• It costs a Metamagic option
• It costs 3 Sorcery Points
• The points must be spent before the enemy creature makes the Saving Throw
• It only works on spells you cast
• It only works on the initial Saving Throw of a spell
• It doesn't also give the PC or ally advantage on one of their own Saving Throws

Now let's take a look at the Psionic Sorcerer. They can spend 1 Sorcery Point and a Reaction to cast Silvery Barbs. It costs 1/3 as many resources as Heightened Spell and is far stronger.

True, Silvery Barbs has advantages over Heightened. That's because it's a different feature, and different features aren't going to function identically. You guys keep focusing only on the portions of Silvery Barbs that are better, not on the ones that are worse.

I'll grant Heightened has all of those disadvantages, and Silvery Barbs has other advantages you missed (it can boost initiative, negate crits, great stuff). But Heightened Spell is only one feature I mentioned. That said, it has some major benefits. It's action cost free. It costs a resource, but is only very slightly more expensive than Silvery Barbs when used normally (with a spell slot). Reactions aren't free. Reactions are an important part of your action economy, especially as a full caster.

For an even less favorable comparison, compare Silvery Barbs to Hound of Ill Omen. Hound of Ill Omen can make not one saving throw be at disadvantage, but can make fifty of them at disadvantage! Let me hasten to point out, because I suspect you'll miss the point, obviously no one is ever getting full use out of Hound of Ill Omen like that. It can be knocked down. It has to be next to a target. There are disadvantages and it isn't going to be useful in every fight. In that same way not every fight, or every session, is going to have one key roll you'll even WANT to spend a reaction and spell slot on rerolling. And when you do have a key roll line up and use Silvery Barbs? It's just another roll, it isn't always going to go your way. And then you've used your reaction. No more Shield (which I maintain is a dramatically better use of a reaction), no Counterspell (higher level slot, same reaction cost, also a way better use when it comes up), no Absorb Elements (another fantastic reaction that, when relevant, blows Silvery Barbs away in usefulness), and you might not even get the result you want!

This is the spell you are calling to be banned? This is the spell that you say is worth using in a fourth level slot? It only competes effectively with the competition for spell slots and reactions because it's versatile. It's good, it's worth taking for a wizard or bard (though probably not a sorcerer), but it's just one reroll at the cost of your reaction and a spell slot! One reroll! I'm genuinely floored. How many creatures do you typically face that one reroll is that big a deal?

"But it also gives advantage to an ally!" Advantage is something you also wildly overblew in importance (going so far as to smugly assert my downplaying its relevance means I don't know what I'm talking about). Want advantage? Get a familiar. In fact, everyone in the party, get a familiar. Better yet, cast a spell that impacts an area, so you can grant your entire team advantage on more than one swing, on more than one target. Advantage on one attack? One?