Simple and elegant monk BAB fix

comrade raoul said:
Yeah, you sure did -- sorry for not noticing that or giving you credit.

It's okay - convergent evolution happens. It's nice to know that others are thinking along the same lines as you are.
 

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Monk BAB Fix

Given the concerns regarding stacking bonuses and the flurry of blows, this is my stab at a fix. I haven't read too many of these ideas so someone may have already suggested this. Here goes:

Create a custom BAB which is 7/8ths rounded down. At 20th level that ends up 4 iterative attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2. It's easy it's simple it gets that coveted fourth attack. I feel it also would work for an Alt.Ranger with a d8 HD,a good Fort and Reflex with lots of wilderness abilities as well (though someone in Gen RPG did a great troll about making the Ranger so wildernessy that it's actually a Druid). You can nix the favorable unarmed bonus but still get 4 attacks and even with Ambi/TWF doesn't break having the rule of getting more than 5.

Anyway, the other changes are more along the lines of the OA options and work on the much maligned Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack abilities. Remove Flurry of Blows and replace it with straight Ambidexterity (the character can still take TWF as a character feat) or use it as a bonus feat like in OA. Then either replace or allow subsitution of stunning attack for Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike or Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Strike. The class is slightly less frontloaded and still has some martial mastery. It also allows for the classic TWF style to work for a swashbuckler monk which is the most logical candidate to me.

Now I like the idea of favorable unarmed BAB and would keep it as is (or even combine it with this- though that tips the power level decidedly in the monks favor) but this gives you a way of having a good weapon to hit and a good unarmed to hit while being a little better than a rogue but not as good as a fighter and no need to worry about stacking. The other two can still dish out a heck of a lot more damage at times though.

My personal pet peave is the "Monk" weapons. If I take a weapon proficiency- martial or exotic- I want my monk to be good with it. Typically this is for something like a sword or a reach weapon. So what I'd do if you kept the favorable attacks was create a feat that allows a user with proficiency to treat that weapon as a monk weapon and gain the favorable attack progression. Still doesn't break the rule of five unless you are using TWF but so can a 3E Ranger (especially one with Improved and Greater TWF).

Fortunately, there is a feat in Quintessential Monk (Northern Staff, Northern Spear prq: BAB +4) that lets you treat 3 of the monk's favored weapons as reach weapons and that takes care of my reach weapon concern Hopefully, 3.5E will give the monk at least one sword. All I'll I need is butterfly sword just like in OA. Honest, that's it that's all I want, just please give the monk a sword!

Well, that's the idea. Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Joe
 

Re: Monk BAB Fix

drdevoid said:

Anyway, the other changes are more along the lines of the OA options and work on the much maligned Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack abilities. Remove Flurry of Blows and replace it with straight Ambidexterity (the character can still take TWF as a character feat) or use it as a bonus feat like in OA.

I ought to point out that flurry of blows is far superior to ambi+TWF because you get full Str bonus on the additional attack. I don't think it is often maligned at all, since it is one of the strongest Monk abilities.
 

Plane Sailing,

I always forget the line about "there is no such thing as an off hand attack for a monk" and hence full bonus on both attacks. Mucho importante! And you are right- it's a good ability- but I have heard so much smack talked about it (i.e. "flurry of misses" and, my personal fave, "stunted attack"). One thing that's a little frustrating about flurry of blows is the inability to upgrade it like a ranger can with improved and then greater two weapon fighting.

But why all the dissention that I have noticed? It's gotta be the BAB. The virtual TWF that is flurry blows with the monk's lower base attack progression and combined with the slow Ki Strike rate and the inability to enchant your fists for extra dice damage (at least in the core rules) gets some people up in arms.The extra attack just sometimes doesn't seem worth it given the increased chance of missing. And since there is the increased chance of missing, those higher damage dice pale compaired to your rogue counter part with his frost rapier of wounding and endless mounds of six siders.

Hence why everyone wants to stack attack bonuses and this thread. Your counter arguement shows a move in the right direction by the designers. Perhaps it needs to go a wee bit farther with the I also have some house rule ideas about channeling stunning attacks for damage here. In the end, though, players just need to except a monk is not a warrior type and definately not Jackie Chan.

Anyway, do you think the 7/8ths solution works? I realize it creates something new but the only other way I've seen to do it without favorable attacks is to grant a bonus every five or six levels or so for unarmed attacks only that stacks with BAB for purpose of determining iterative attacks. BUT this is just a way of giving the monk a fighter BAB with unarmed attacks but not with weapons. I'm not sure if I like that method. It does solve the same problem without creating something new, however.

Thanks,
Joe
 

A while back, on the WotC board, I broke down the various possible solutions to the BAB problem, and how different methods work. Also, keep in mind that a "balanced" fix is relative to the role monks are to play in a campaign. The standard rules, monks are supposed to fall into the same camp as wizards, clerics, and other casters -- multiclassing weakens you. On the other hand, BAB fixes shift the monk into the same group as most other warrior classes, i.e. multiclassing doesn't hurt, it just stings.

--

1) Core rules. First, figgure monk attacks from monk levels alone. Second, total base attack from other classes. Finally, add the additional base attack to your primary attack only. The monk 10/fighter 5 attacks unarmed at +12/+4/+1 and probably picks his armed BAB anyway.
Analysis: Balanced, but screws multiclassed monks.

2) Conservative literal fundamentalist. You make unarmed attacks based on your monk levels alone; other class's BAB doesn't affect it at all. [Borne from misinterpreting the PHB with a literal, almost biblical bent.] The monk 10/fighter 5 attacks unarmed at +7/+4/+1 and has no choice but to use his armed BAB anyway.
Analysis: Underpowered, and REALLY screws multiclassed monks.

3) Moderate rule-zero. Figgure your unarmed attacks from monk levels alone, but then add your other class's BAB to all your unarmed attacks. A monk 10/fighter 5 would attack unarmed at +12/+9/+6.
Analysis: Quite balanced, especially if you don't want multiclassed monks to be too powerful.

4) Liberal rule-zero. As the Moderate Rule-Zero, except that if the last attack in your unarmed attack routine is +6 or higher, you get to add more attacks at the armed, -5 iteration. A monk 10/fighter 5 attacks at +12/+9/+6/+1 using this method.
Analysis: Still balanced, also fairly logical. Lets multiclassed monks truly benefit from their unarmed attacks, but not too much since the last attack will invariably come at a low bonus. This is the method I use.

5) Radical rule-zero (also known as the Everquest method). Total your base attack bonus from all your classes. Unarmed attacks come at a -4 iteration instead of a -5 iteration (single-classed monks alone may use -3). A monk 10/fighter 5 would attack at +12/+8/+4. This method heavily favors fighters who take just a few monk levels.
Analysis: Unbalanced. Too easy to abuse.

6) The Quick-And-Dirty: Monks simply gain the fighter's base attack bonus in all situation. They ought to, they're warriors anyway.
Analysis: Possibly balanced, it's been done before in many martial artist classes, and it's by far the simplest and most elegant of all methods. On the down side, monks lose their historically impressive attack rate without using Flurry and special feats.

7) The Extreme Left (aka, the Sean K. Reynolds method): Total your BAB, and attacks come at a -3 iteration out to five attacks.
Analysis: Even more unbalanced than method #5, very easy to abuse. Mr. Reynolds did a breakdown of the class features that really de-emphasizes the importance of base attack bonus in its analysis, as well as ignoring Flurry of Blows and speed at which the unarmed attacks are gained. In the end, his analysis proved nothing at all.

--

Incidentally, my method #4 does the same thing as the first poster's house rule, but I was able to explain it in uder six lines of text. Goes to show how sometimes the house rules that are already out there often turn up the simplest of all.
 
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comrade raoul said:

Problems with monk unarmed base attack bonuses have been around since 3e was published. The dilemma is familiar: if a monk could stack base attack bonuses from other classes when attacking, then characters could take one level of monk
(already a front-loaded class) and get a very powerful favorable attack progression with unarmed attacks or monk weapons for the rest of their careers -- so unrestricted BAB stacking seems to invite abuses and be a very bad idea. On the other hand, the standard, PH route (preventing monks using base attack bonuses from other classes when making unarmed attacks at their favorable rate) is balanced, but it prevents monks who want to make use of their unarmed benefits from taking more than a couple of levels in other classes.

<snip>

Problems? What problems? The PH rule is there for a reason, and it balances everything perfectly. If a monk wants full benefit from the good BAB progression, they must remain a monk. Forget the fact that monks can't multiclass to begin with except for a couple of Prestige Classes. It's about the dedication.

There's basically nothing to fix. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
 

Re: Re: Simple and elegant monk BAB fix

Anubis said:


Problems? What problems? The PH rule is there for a reason, and it balances everything perfectly. If a monk wants full benefit from the good BAB progression, they must remain a monk. Forget the fact that monks can't multiclass to begin with except for a couple of Prestige Classes. It's about the dedication.

There's basically nothing to fix. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

That doesn't apply if you don't agree with that view of the monk. I certainly don't play in Greyhawk, so why should I be bound by the restrictions placed on the Greyhawk monk? The Forgotten Realms monk has lax multiclassing restrictions, and the Oriental Adventures monk has none at all. What if I want the monk to fill the same role in my world as in one of those other settings?

"Dedication" is flavor. Having to remain a monk is flavor. When you want flavor, go to Baskin Robins.
 
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It's true that if you're dead set against allowing monks to multiclass, the PH rules work just fine -- monks that take more than a level or two in another class lose the benefit of their favorable unarmed atack progression, one of the class's key advantages.

There are two problems with this. First, I see very few reasons to oppose monk multiclassing and considerably more reasons to support it. If you want the "dedication" flavor, why not just stick with the existing multiclassing restriction (multiclassing out of monk prevents returning to it) that paladins have?

But there are a lot of advantages. 3e is built around using the flexible multiclassing rules to accomodate a whole range of character concepts, and enabling the monk to multiclass effectively opens up a lot of interesting and appropriate options that weren't there earlier (serious martial artists might be fighter/monks, ninja-like characters might be monk/rogues, and so forth). Being able to create an interesting character through creative multiclassing is one of the great boons of 3e, and there's no reason why monks shouldn't contribute to this.

Second, the way multiclassing a monk negates all of the monk's faster unarmed attack rate is uniquely restrictive. Multiclassing should slow down the rate at which a class gains its unique abilities, not negate it -- wizards who multiclass retain their existing spellcasting abilities but postpone getting new ones; fighters postpone bonus feats, and so forth. This system tries to duplicate that with monks -- it represents the monk's unarmed attack speed as a special ability that is unique to the class, and is retained (but not improved) when the character takes levels in something else. I think this is the fairest and most sensible way to do it.
 

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