Simple cleric changes.

[comrade raoul]

As follows.

1. Remove divine favor, divine power, and righteous might from the cleric spell list.
2. Remove proficiency with heavy armor.
3. Increase skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier.
4. Add Knowledge (local) and Sense Motive to the list of cleric class skills.

Thus, the "buff and bash" cleric is now eliminated, but the increased skill points allow clerics to become more interesting characters: more like the sages, counselors, and exemplars of their doctrines that they ought to be.

Thoughts?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Its your game and you can do what you want...

However, I don't think that 2 extra skill points per level makes up for losing Heavy Armor and 3 of the more commonly used spells.

 

[Nyaricus]

id have to agree.

the fact that a level one character can still pick up the heavy armour prof with their first feat, inexchange for a increas of 2 skills per level (nor to mentio the x4 at first level) isnt fair.

The fact is, there are many things one could do to "limit" (read: make them less jack-of-most-trades). Decrease their HP to a d6, take down thier BAB to 1/2. Make Arcane spell failure applicable. Drop their fort save to medium or bad.

There are lots of potential solutions to this quandry. But yours seems lacking in balance.

Just a thought.

 

[Nifft]

As follows.

1. Remove divine favor, divine power, and righteous might from the cleric spell list.
2. Remove proficiency with heavy armor.
3. Increase skill points per level to 4 + Int modifier.

Sounds fine to me. IMC, Clerics lose heavy & medium armor. I tell my players there's a great "prestige class" for Clerics who want to wear heavy armor, and it's called "a level of Fighter".

(Yes, this means that martial heavy-armor Clerics are typical only among Dwarves & Humans. This suits me fine. Half-Orc clerics would take a level of Barbarian to get Medium armor, and Halfling, Elf and Gnome clerics simply don't wear heavy armor. Yay rules which support stereotypes!)

-- N

 

[Nyeshet]

Hmm, maybe if you added in "Theology" or "Religious Lore" - a know(religions) equivalent of bardic lore (perhaps also allowing for K:Local in regions where the religion is quite popular, and maybe K:arcane for the purpose of mystic lore relating also to religions, and perhaps K:the planes when such is strongly associated with religions or the afterlife) - it could work? Perhaps if you also added in a few more class skills (Bluff, Sense Motive, maybe Perform)?

Giving up Heavy Armor and the spells most likely to make the Cleric useful in a fight for 2 skill points, a couple extra class skills, and a lore equivalent that mostly focuses upon subjects touched by K:religion sounds fair. The Cleric becomes a sage with some people skills.

 

[Merlion]

Well see there are two issues at play with the Cleric.

One is that they are considerably overpowered.

Another is that they dont really do the job of representing "priests" of different deities very well, since they all have the same class abilities and mostly the same spells. (Personally, I dont like the very idea of a "priest" class; I think deities would have "priests" drawn from existing classes apropriate to their nature, but I digress).


One of these two issues can be resolved by taking the existing class and triming it, the other is more complicated.

If I was going to take the Cleric and make it into a balanced version of what the designers claim its supposed to be (a full caster focused on healing, support and the like), I would start by removing the majority of their combat/defenseive basic class features. Bump Hit Die to a d6, remove at least Heavy armor, maybe medium as well, and drop the Fort save to Medium or poor progression. Maybe lower BAB too but that doesnt really matter as much once the other changes are made.

Then I'd remove certain offensive spells. Also, there are a number of Cleric or Cleric and Druid spells that other classes should really have access to..Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Find the Path and a few others especially spring to mind.

Also, I personally feel that all casting classes should have to learn their spells in some fashion...no automatic access to the whole spell list.


These things would take care of the balance issues.


The other, flavour issue however would basically require a new class. You could tweak the Cleric into a fitting "priest" for most religions, but in order to be able to adapt to any religion you'd have to create a class with a stripped down baseline to which ones choice of deity adds most of the class features.


I attempted such a thing some time ago, a Priest class. You can access it through the sticky classes/races in the forum thread.

 

[Nyaricus]

Merlion, nice Priest class!! I think I'll be using that as a basis for my Priest class IMC.

Anymore useful links to interesting tidbits of yours??

 

[Sigurd]

The cleric has patiently benefitted from a steady power creep. Not only can he\she cast more spells than wizards he\she doesnt even have to find them.

Great armor, decent hp, and as many or more item creation feats than arcane casters. Add to that a relationship with an Almighty and you have a seriously overpowerred char.

Domains borrow a lot of previously arcane only spells. Every god seems to add a few magic exceptions and special spells that somehow all clerics have to receive as well.

Deities seem to keep clerics for little or none of their own benefit -- there should be serious kick ass demands on the first servants of the mega powerful. "Hey Cleric go to this continent and brush the ash off my alter there, I'm getting some bad vibes." So long as Deities are dealt with seperately than those who serve them the cleric is likely to stay broken. IMHO

 

[Merlion]

Merlion, nice Priest class!! I think I'll be using that as a basis for my Priest class IMC.

Anymore useful links to interesting tidbits of yours??

Thanks. I never finished polishing it up and working everything out, but something like that is what I feel would be needed to really do a "priest" class in a polytheistic enviroment.

The only other thing of mine up there thats somewhat relevent is my "Mystic" class. Its designed to be a mage class focused on healing and defense and support, without combat ability or any religious connection.

However two things...its designed for use in my own games where there is no concept of "arcane" or "divine"...also, its gone through many versions and I dont know which one is currently linked from that thread.

Deities seem to keep clerics for little or none of their own benefit -- there should be serious kick ass demands on the first servants of the mega powerful. "Hey Cleric go to this continent and brush the ash off my alter there, I'm getting some bad vibes." So long as Deities are dealt with seperately than those who serve them the cleric is likely to stay broken. IMHO

Trouble is, roleplaying restrictions dont balance mechanical benefits.

The class needs to be made mechanically balanced, not by roleplaying restrictions or demands, but in the same manner as all the other classes...by the mechanics themselves. Clerics just have to much, and they have no mechanical weaknesses.


However, I do feel these things played a role in how the Cleric became overpowered. The designers feel that every party must have a super healer, and that the Cleric is it. But the also believe nobody wants to play a super healer, and therefore nobody wants to play a Cleric, because thats all they are seen as.

And so they made the Cleric drastically more powerful than the other classes so people would want to play it.

However, I believe first of all that every party doesnt have to have a super healer...I also believe the reason most people who dont want to play a Cleric dont want to play one is do to the conceptual and roleplaying baggage of the class...a lot of people dont want to play a "priest", who's power all comes from outside himself

 

[comrade raoul]

Okay, so there've been a range of responses, and people don't seem to agree whether I'd be giving or taking away too much. I thought I'd clarify the original post by talking a bit about what I think the current version of the cleric does right, and what it does wrong.

I think it's good that the 3e cleric gets more than its AD&D predecessors. Most people don't want to play purely support characters: most people don't want to step back, heal and buff everyone, and let the rest of the party shine. People worry about the cleric's domain spells -- it can seem like it allows the cleric to step on the wizard's toes -- but I think, broadly, they're a good idea. Letting clerics of a storm god drop a lightning bolt or something once a day is flavorful and appealing, and it gives the cleric's player a chance to have a couple of unexpected tricks up his sleeve. It helps make clerics into more interesting and complex characters.

But I really, really don't like what I called in the original post the "buff and bash" cleric. It should be received wisdom by this point that, given a round or two to prepare, a mid-to-high-level cleric can imbue herself with combat abilities that match or even exceed those comparably experienced fighters or barbarians. All of this has to do with the three spells I pick out in the original post: the first-level spell that gives the cleric massive, and readily stackable, bonuses to attack and damage; the fourth-level spell that gives her a fighter-grade base attack bonus and helpful ability bonuses; and the fifth-level spell that gives her added size and powerful DR. Eliminating these spells doesn't cripple the cleric, who still has lots of very useful buffs -- think of shield of faith, prayer, or bull's strength -- but it means that she is not going to be upstaging the party fighter. Clerics, even without heavy armor, can still play their traditional role as defensive, supporting melee participants.

Is eliminating these three spells, and immediate access to heavy armor (note that IMC nobody gets heavy armor for free, though fighters and paladins get easier ways to access it), enough to justify increasing the cleric's skill points? I think so. It probably, in an objective sense, gives the cleric more than she had earlier, but what the cleric gets is largely orthogonal to her traditional concern with helping her party succeed in combat. In effect, my rule trades one option for the cleric -- the ability to temporarily become a combat monster -- for another -- the ability to better become (as Nyeshet) puts it, a "sage with people skills."

Come to think of it, to do this, I'd add one more modification: clerics gain Knowledge (local) and Sense Motive as class skills. I'm editing the original post to reflect that.