D&D (2024) 2024 Player's Handbook reveal: "New Cleric"

You are as always welcome to disagree.

And you are always welcome to try and make an argument that fits both what was being discussed, and makes sense.

Like, can you argue that for the sole purpose of giving Wizards and Clerics special treatment, someone should redesign 5e24 to match Level Up? Because that is what I said doesn't make sense, so that must be what the disagreement is about.

Or are you going to disagree that other classes aren't missing thematic subclasses?
 

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And you are always welcome to try and make an argument that fits both what was being discussed, and makes sense.

Like, can you argue that for the sole purpose of giving Wizards and Clerics special treatment, someone should redesign 5e24 to match Level Up? Because that is what I said doesn't make sense, so that must be what the disagreement is about.

Or are you going to disagree that other classes aren't missing thematic subclasses?
I think precedent is the reason that clerics and wizards are expected to have more subclasses, because at least since 2nd edition they've got lots of domains for clerics and almost two handfuls of specializations for wizards.
 

And you are always welcome to try and make an argument that fits both what was being discussed, and makes sense.

Like, can you argue that for the sole purpose of giving Wizards and Clerics special treatment, someone should redesign 5e24 to match Level Up? Because that is what I said doesn't make sense, so that must be what the disagreement is about.

Or are you going to disagree that other classes aren't missing thematic subclasses?
I assume thematic subclasses are a good thing for every class.
 


I think precedent is the reason that clerics and wizards are expected to have more subclasses, because at least since 2nd edition they've got lots of domains for clerics and almost two handfuls of specializations for wizards.

I can understand tradition and expectations, and as I said, I am not against new subclasses in the future. I fully EXPECT more subclasses in the future for all the classes.

And, again, I turn to the situation in 2014. Even with seven subclasses, there were cleric concepts missing. Especially the Forge domain, which was heavily requested. People made due with the subclasses we had, to make them close enough to Forge. People made their own Forge Domains. And both options still exist, along with an even better option. We can take the 2014 Forge Domain, and easily translate it into 2024. There are even going to be rules for doing exactly that in the cleric class itself. So we have even more options to cover the gaps we might find.

I agree with wanting more, but I want more of all the classes. And frankly the reason this is not a discussion for most of the classes, is because we keep comparing it to the 2014 PHB. While every class is losing subclasses from the larger game, the original PHB had five Classes which had 2 subclasses, five classes with 3 subclasses, and then the Cleric with 7 and the Wizard with 8. So, in terms of the original PHB every single other class, is GAINING subclasses in the PHB, and only the cleric and wizard are getting less, because they had over double the number of subclasses as anyone else to start with.

And, while it is tradition and expectation.... they don't require special treatment.
 


I can understand tradition and expectations, and as I said, I am not against new subclasses in the future. I fully EXPECT more subclasses in the future for all the classes.

And, again, I turn to the situation in 2014. Even with seven subclasses, there were cleric concepts missing. Especially the Forge domain, which was heavily requested. People made due with the subclasses we had, to make them close enough to Forge. People made their own Forge Domains. And both options still exist, along with an even better option. We can take the 2014 Forge Domain, and easily translate it into 2024. There are even going to be rules for doing exactly that in the cleric class itself. So we have even more options to cover the gaps we might find.

I agree with wanting more, but I want more of all the classes. And frankly the reason this is not a discussion for most of the classes, is because we keep comparing it to the 2014 PHB. While every class is losing subclasses from the larger game, the original PHB had five Classes which had 2 subclasses, five classes with 3 subclasses, and then the Cleric with 7 and the Wizard with 8. So, in terms of the original PHB every single other class, is GAINING subclasses in the PHB, and only the cleric and wizard are getting less, because they had over double the number of subclasses as anyone else to start with.

And, while it is tradition and expectation.... they don't require special treatment.
And you think fans of clerics and wizards, who are demonstrably losing material in the new book compared to all the other classes, have no right to be irritated and should just clam up and find another option?
 

I mean, isn't that exactly how this works? If you don't like an option, you seek a new one. Complaining about it now, when the books are written and it's too late to change anything might have an impact, but the effects could be months or years down the line- and for all we know, more subclasses are already being slated to be added in that time.

If people aren't happy with WotC's approach, they can vote with their wallets, capitalism at work. Now I don't have the data, but WotC seemingly believes that for every person who is unhappy with their product and business decisions, that there are three people who are at least content. Nothing is going to change at this point until they start losing money.

So yeah, if a consumer don't like the product, it's on them to find an alternative or make do with what they're being sold until demand causes the thing they want to materialize in front of them.
 

They should all get more, but IMO, as they are measured by WotC the class fantasy for clerics and wizards is damaged by having fewer subclasses more than other classes.

How? You keep saying it, but you aren't telling me how. Didn't wizards in 3.5 do perfectly fine without specialized rules sets for every type of wizard? Didn't clerics work perfectly fine before domains were even a thing?

How are they "damaged" here?

And you think fans of clerics and wizards, who are demonstrably losing material in the new book compared to all the other classes, have no right to be irritated and should just clam up and find another option?

IF you are going to offer me the false choice of "do we let them demand special treatment or tell them to shut up" then yeah, I'll lean towards telling them to clam up. Because the thing is, they are complaining about receiving equal treatment. Honestly, I'm a huge fan of clerics, I love the class. I'm a little sad that some of the more interesting subclasses aren't in here... but I'm not going to demand we drop the Dance Bard so I can have the Grave Cleric, or drop the Zealot Barbarian so someone can have the Necromancer Wizard. That isn't being fair to the Bard or the Barbarian, who both deserve their four subclasses, and also lost out on interesting subclasses that didn't make it into the book.

Everyone gets 4. You don't need more than that, you do not require more than that, your favorite class is not damaged by not having more than that. If you truly, desperately need one of the 2014 subclasses for your 2024 wizard or cleric, there is literally going to be advice in the book on making that work. And if you aren't willing to do the minuscule amount of work needed to transfer them over (which, seriously, is basically nothing), then you don't need them that badly.
 

I think precedent is the reason that clerics and wizards are expected to have more subclasses, because at least since 2nd edition they've got lots of domains for clerics and almost two handfuls of specializations for wizards.
In 2e and 3e, though, the specialties weren't enough to be a subclass. They were just a different take on a wizard. 5e should not have turned the specialties into entire subclasses, because doing that does create the expectation that all 8 will be present in the PHB. Specialties in 5e should have had a plusses and minuses like 2e and 3e had, and then a few subclasses dealing with other things.
 

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