Simple question about surprise

[carborundum]

I'm back in DM saddle after many years of absence, and the simplest things seem to cause confusion. Take yesterday, for example. The party entered a vault which they knew was defended by some sort of construct. It was - an Iron Cobra, which none of them had heard, seen, spotted, whatever.
The first one in stated his action as readying against the construct attacking. The construct was hidden right beside him in a low alcove and attacked. Since he didn't spot it I stated that he could only fight back once the first surprise attack was calculated. Luckily, he survived the first bite.

It seems simple - you can't carry out a readied action if you don't perceive whether the conditions are fulfilled. If it had been spotted while moving to attack, he'd be ready for it, but this is more like being attacked by an invisible creature. If you don't see, hear, smell or otherwise sense it, your first moment of awareness must be feeling the result of its first strike.

Still, it got me wondering if I'd done it right.

 

[Viashimo]

I agree with your ruling.

If a party of characters enter a dungeon (or whatever else) and they know combat or another form of danger is pretty much assured, then of course they'll be "ready" for it as much as possible (buffs, etc.). However, if you do not know where an enemy is, you cannot do much about it, regardless of what you have readied.

I'm a little fuzzy on whether or not he could ready such an action, but it seems possible.

 

[Erywin]

I believe by RAW that you can't ready an action outside of combat. Seeing as combat doesn't start til you roll initiative, then your ruling was correct and what I would've done if I were in your situation.

Cheers,
E

 

[Elethiomel]

You can't ready an action if initiative hasn't been rolled for combat.

And I won't allow my players to "force initiative rounds" by stating "I attack the darkness!" or suchlike. I don't know if there's a specific set of conditions that have to be fulfilled for a party to roll for initiative, but when I GM, I usually call for it when there's a clear and present enemy (either noticed through that first invisible attack, or "the orc draws his falchion and yells a war cry!" or the players say "Okay, King Goodie. You won't pay us because someone stole your treasure, you say? Tough. That crown looks to be worth about the reward. How's about you hand it over. No? We'll take it anyway. Die!" or other such circumstances.

 

[blargney the second]

Wait. I think I just failed a Spot check.

 

[hong]

The party couldn't detect the cobra, but they were aware that something was inside. This isn't too different to the cliched example of two groups on either side of a door, both of which are aware of the other.

Hence I wouldn't call for a surprise round. Just have everyone roll init normally. Then, if the PCs go first, they can make Spot checks to detect the cobra, or ready an attack for when it appears.

 

[The Levitator]

Hong knocks yet another one out of the park!

It always makes me feel good when I read a post like this, and consider what I would do, and find out that someone like Hong posts what I was thinking. I just wish it happened more often!

 

[carborundum]

Thanks, folks.
My minor mistake was letting him get away with saying such a thing before initiative was rolled.
I suppose it does nothing to spoil the tension by rolling initiative before describing what happens - I mean, they KNOW there's going to be a fight anyway.

And a hint of "attacking the darkness" has shown me where that path leads!

 

[carborundum]

Thread resurrection.

I was thinking about this again and wondered if someone could point me to the rule about not readying an action before initiative is rolled. Is it 'common sense' or a hard and fast rule? Reading the Initiative and Surprise sections, I get the idea that I should call for perception rolls and allow anyone aware of the opponent to make initiative rolls to act in the surprise round. Anyone unaware of the hiding opponents is surprised & flat-footed. The following round I should, presumably, let the other PCs make initiative rolls and slot them into the existing initiative order.
Sorry for the confusion!

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

PH, p. 160: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun." I.e., you have to have taken a turn first before you can ready actions for your next turn. Different verbage than just saying "You can't ready actions outside of combat", but same intent and result. I believe sage advice has also stated the same.