Started this over at the "Should non-fighters get maneuvers and expertise dice" thread.
Short answer, for me was: Yes, all non-caster classes should get Expertise Dice. But, No. Only Fighter or Fighter subclasses (not Rogues, Monks, etc...) should get Maneuvers.
But wanted to carry on with this mental exercise without derailing the existing thread. So, here we go:
*Note that all of the below is just hypothetical examples for starting at 1st level. Please don't post/argue about I think X class should get Y instead of Z.
Expertise Dice: All non-caster classes get ED. You get [holds up fingers] dis many at dis level.
Spells: All caster classes get Spells [slots]. You get dis many at dis level.
Fighter: Yada, yada, you're a fighter. You get Maneuvers.
Here's a list of what Maneuvers can do/you can choose from: Deadly Strike, Parry, Extra Damage.
Use your Expertise Dice to use a Maneuver.
(Then you go on to explain other abilities of the fighter, such as Extra Attacks, that don't require the use of ED.)
Cleric: Yada, yada, you're a cleric. You get Divine Magic.
Here's a list of what Divine Magic can do/you can choose from: Bless, Light, Cure Wounds.
Use your Spells to use Divine Magic.
(Then go on to explain other abilities of the cleric, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Rogue: Yada, yada, you're a rogue. You get Schemes.
Here's a list of what Schemes can do/you can choose from: Stealth, Sneak Attack, Diffuse Device.
Use your Expertise Dice [since Rogue is a non-caster class] to use your Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Rogue, such as Search/Spot, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Mage: Yada, yada, you're a mage. You get Arcane Magic.
Here's a list of what Arcane Magic can do/you can choose from: Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep.
Use your Spells to use your Arcane Magic.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Mage, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
----------------------------------------
Paladin: Yada, yada, you're a paladin. You get Channel Divine.
Here's a list of what Channel Divine can do/you can choose from: Smite, Protection Aura, Duplicate Divine Magic.
As a Paladin, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Paladin is a non-caster class!] to use either Channel Divine or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Paladin, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Monk: Yada, yada, you're a monk. You get Styles.
Here's a list of what Styles can do/you can choose from: Stunning Strike, Deflect Missile, Iron Will.
As a Monk, you also gain access to Rogue Schemes.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Monk is a non-caster class!] to use either your Styles or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Monk, such as Tumbling, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
----------------------
Druid: Yada, yada, you're a druid. You get Nature Magic.
Here's a list of what Nature Magic can do/you can choose from: Entangle, Faerie Fire, Speak with Animals.
Use your Spells to use your Nature Magic.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Druid, such as Nature Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Bard: Yada, yada, you're a bard. You get Channel Nature.
Here's a list of what Channel Nature can do/you can choose from: Charm Person, Remove Fear, Duplicate Nature Magic.
As a Bard you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Spells [since Bard is a caster class] to use your Channel Nature or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Bard, such as Ancient Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Ranger: Yada, yada, you're a ranger. You get Ways.
Here's a list of what Ways can do/you can choose from: Tracking, Favored Enemy, Keen Senses.
As a Ranger, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Ranger is a non-caster class!] to use either your Ways or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Ranger, such as Nature Lore, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
------------------------------
Sorcerer: Yada, yada, you're a sorcerer. You get Channel Arcane.
Here's a list of what Channel Arcane can do/you can choose from: Detect Magic, Resist Elements, Duplicate Arcane Magic.
As a Sorcerer you also get Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Spells [since Sorcerer is a caster class] to use your Channel Arcane or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Sorcerer, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Warlock: Yada, yada, you're a warlock. You get Pacts.
Here's a list of what Pacts can do/you can choose from: Eldritch Blast, Devil's Curse, Shadow Step.
As a Warlock you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Spells [since Warlock is a caster class] to use your Pact or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Warlock, such as Use Magic Device, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
---------------------------
Assassin: Yada, yada, you're a assassin. You get Plots.
Here's a list of what Plots can do/you can choose from: Poison Use, Garrote Attack, Disguise.
As an Assassin you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Expertise Dice [since Assassin is a caster class] to use your Plots or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Assassin, such as Search/Spot, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Barbarian: Yada, yada, you're a barbarian. You get Rages.
Here's a list of what Rages can do/you can choose from: Power Attack, Magic Resistance, Temp Damage Reduction.
As a Barbarian, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Barbarian is a non-caster class!] to use either your Rages or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Barbarian, such as Survival, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Warlord: Yada, yada, you're a warlord. You get Tactics.
Here's a list of what Tactics can do/you can choose from: Inspire Temp HP, Courageous Save Bonus, Rally Attack Bonus.
As a Warlord, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Warlord is a non-caster class!] to use either your Tactics or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Warlord, such as...?...something people think a Warlord needs to justify its own class [as I do think it is so justified], that don't depend on the use of ED.)
----------------------------------
Specialist Mage: Illusionist: Yada, yada, you're an illusionist. You get Arcane Tradition: Illusion.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Illusion can do/you can choose from: Detect Magic, Color Spray, Wall of Fog.
Use your Spells [since Illusionist is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Illusionist, such as Sleight of Hand, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Mage: Necromancer: Yada, yada, you're a necromancer. You get Arcane Tradition: Necromancy.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Necromancy can do/you can choose from: Darkness, Chill Touch, Command Undead.
Use your Spells [since Necromancer is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Necromancer, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Mage: Evoker: Yada, yada, you're an evoker. You get Arcane Tradition: Evocation.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Evocation can do/you can choose from: Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost.
Use your Spells [since Evoker is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Evoker, such as Use Magic Device, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Sun-Priest: Yada, yada, you're a sun-priest. You get Divine Domain: Sun.
Here's a list of what Domain: Sun can do/you can choose from: Light, Turn Undead, Searing Ray.
Use your Spells [since Sun-Priest is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Necromancer, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Battle-Priest: Yada, yada, you're an battle-priest. You get Divine Domain: Combat.
Here's a list of what Domain: Combat can do/you can choose from: Bless, Resist Elements, Smite.
Use your Spells [since Battle-Priest is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Battle-priest, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Healer: Yada, yada, you're a healer. You get Divine Domain: Healing.
Here's a list of what Domain: Healing can do/you can choose from: Cure wounds, Sanctuary, Remove Affliction.
Use your Spells [since Healer is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Healer, such as Mundane Healing (?), that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Guardian: Yada, yada, you're a guardian. You get Divine Domain: Protection.
Here's a list of what Domain: Protection can do/you can choose from: Resist Magic, Remove Fear, Protection Circle.
Use your Spells [since Guardian is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Guardian, such as something Guardiany, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
ok...ok...I'll stop now.
Just throwin'it out there. Thoughts? Ideas?
Short answer, for me was: Yes, all non-caster classes should get Expertise Dice. But, No. Only Fighter or Fighter subclasses (not Rogues, Monks, etc...) should get Maneuvers.
But wanted to carry on with this mental exercise without derailing the existing thread. So, here we go:
*Note that all of the below is just hypothetical examples for starting at 1st level. Please don't post/argue about I think X class should get Y instead of Z.
Expertise Dice: All non-caster classes get ED. You get [holds up fingers] dis many at dis level.
Spells: All caster classes get Spells [slots]. You get dis many at dis level.
Fighter: Yada, yada, you're a fighter. You get Maneuvers.
Here's a list of what Maneuvers can do/you can choose from: Deadly Strike, Parry, Extra Damage.
Use your Expertise Dice to use a Maneuver.
(Then you go on to explain other abilities of the fighter, such as Extra Attacks, that don't require the use of ED.)
Cleric: Yada, yada, you're a cleric. You get Divine Magic.
Here's a list of what Divine Magic can do/you can choose from: Bless, Light, Cure Wounds.
Use your Spells to use Divine Magic.
(Then go on to explain other abilities of the cleric, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Rogue: Yada, yada, you're a rogue. You get Schemes.
Here's a list of what Schemes can do/you can choose from: Stealth, Sneak Attack, Diffuse Device.
Use your Expertise Dice [since Rogue is a non-caster class] to use your Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Rogue, such as Search/Spot, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Mage: Yada, yada, you're a mage. You get Arcane Magic.
Here's a list of what Arcane Magic can do/you can choose from: Magic Missile, Shield, Sleep.
Use your Spells to use your Arcane Magic.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Mage, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
----------------------------------------
Paladin: Yada, yada, you're a paladin. You get Channel Divine.
Here's a list of what Channel Divine can do/you can choose from: Smite, Protection Aura, Duplicate Divine Magic.
As a Paladin, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Paladin is a non-caster class!] to use either Channel Divine or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Paladin, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Monk: Yada, yada, you're a monk. You get Styles.
Here's a list of what Styles can do/you can choose from: Stunning Strike, Deflect Missile, Iron Will.
As a Monk, you also gain access to Rogue Schemes.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Monk is a non-caster class!] to use either your Styles or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Monk, such as Tumbling, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
----------------------
Druid: Yada, yada, you're a druid. You get Nature Magic.
Here's a list of what Nature Magic can do/you can choose from: Entangle, Faerie Fire, Speak with Animals.
Use your Spells to use your Nature Magic.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Druid, such as Nature Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Bard: Yada, yada, you're a bard. You get Channel Nature.
Here's a list of what Channel Nature can do/you can choose from: Charm Person, Remove Fear, Duplicate Nature Magic.
As a Bard you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Spells [since Bard is a caster class] to use your Channel Nature or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Bard, such as Ancient Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Ranger: Yada, yada, you're a ranger. You get Ways.
Here's a list of what Ways can do/you can choose from: Tracking, Favored Enemy, Keen Senses.
As a Ranger, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Ranger is a non-caster class!] to use either your Ways or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Ranger, such as Nature Lore, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
------------------------------
Sorcerer: Yada, yada, you're a sorcerer. You get Channel Arcane.
Here's a list of what Channel Arcane can do/you can choose from: Detect Magic, Resist Elements, Duplicate Arcane Magic.
As a Sorcerer you also get Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Spells [since Sorcerer is a caster class] to use your Channel Arcane or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Sorcerer, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Warlock: Yada, yada, you're a warlock. You get Pacts.
Here's a list of what Pacts can do/you can choose from: Eldritch Blast, Devil's Curse, Shadow Step.
As a Warlock you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Spells [since Warlock is a caster class] to use your Pact or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Warlock, such as Use Magic Device, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
---------------------------
Assassin: Yada, yada, you're a assassin. You get Plots.
Here's a list of what Plots can do/you can choose from: Poison Use, Garrote Attack, Disguise.
As an Assassin you also get Rogue Schemes.
Use your Expertise Dice [since Assassin is a caster class] to use your Plots or Schemes.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Assassin, such as Search/Spot, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Barbarian: Yada, yada, you're a barbarian. You get Rages.
Here's a list of what Rages can do/you can choose from: Power Attack, Magic Resistance, Temp Damage Reduction.
As a Barbarian, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Barbarian is a non-caster class!] to use either your Rages or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Barbarian, such as Survival, that don't depend on the use of ED.)
Warlord: Yada, yada, you're a warlord. You get Tactics.
Here's a list of what Tactics can do/you can choose from: Inspire Temp HP, Courageous Save Bonus, Rally Attack Bonus.
As a Warlord, you also gain access to Fighter Maneuvers.
Use your Expertise Dice [since a Warlord is a non-caster class!] to use either your Tactics or Maneuvers.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Warlord, such as...?...something people think a Warlord needs to justify its own class [as I do think it is so justified], that don't depend on the use of ED.)
----------------------------------
Specialist Mage: Illusionist: Yada, yada, you're an illusionist. You get Arcane Tradition: Illusion.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Illusion can do/you can choose from: Detect Magic, Color Spray, Wall of Fog.
Use your Spells [since Illusionist is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Illusionist, such as Sleight of Hand, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Mage: Necromancer: Yada, yada, you're a necromancer. You get Arcane Tradition: Necromancy.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Necromancy can do/you can choose from: Darkness, Chill Touch, Command Undead.
Use your Spells [since Necromancer is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Necromancer, such as Arcane Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Mage: Evoker: Yada, yada, you're an evoker. You get Arcane Tradition: Evocation.
Here's a list of what Tradition: Evocation can do/you can choose from: Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost.
Use your Spells [since Evoker is a caster class] to use your Traditions.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Evoker, such as Use Magic Device, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Sun-Priest: Yada, yada, you're a sun-priest. You get Divine Domain: Sun.
Here's a list of what Domain: Sun can do/you can choose from: Light, Turn Undead, Searing Ray.
Use your Spells [since Sun-Priest is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Necromancer, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Battle-Priest: Yada, yada, you're an battle-priest. You get Divine Domain: Combat.
Here's a list of what Domain: Combat can do/you can choose from: Bless, Resist Elements, Smite.
Use your Spells [since Battle-Priest is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Battle-priest, such as Religious Lore, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Healer: Yada, yada, you're a healer. You get Divine Domain: Healing.
Here's a list of what Domain: Healing can do/you can choose from: Cure wounds, Sanctuary, Remove Affliction.
Use your Spells [since Healer is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Healer, such as Mundane Healing (?), that don't depend on the use of spells.)
Specialist Cleric: Guardian: Yada, yada, you're a guardian. You get Divine Domain: Protection.
Here's a list of what Domain: Protection can do/you can choose from: Resist Magic, Remove Fear, Protection Circle.
Use your Spells [since Guardian is a caster class] to use your Domain.
(Go on to explain other abilities of the Guardian, such as something Guardiany, that don't depend on the use of spells.)
ok...ok...I'll stop now.
Just throwin'it out there. Thoughts? Ideas?
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