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D&D 5E Simulacrum - Sorcery Points?

Fuchi Miller

First Post
If a high level Sorcerer casts Wish to cast Simulacrum:
  • Does the simulacrum have access to sorcery Points?
  • Does the simulacrum gain the points back on a long rest?
  • Can it use meta magic?
  • does it gain the benefits of a draconic sorcerer?

If yes to all, isnt that super strong?
 

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Mephista

First Post
Simulacrum is a very powerful spell, no matter who casts it or how. You could duplicate a Tarrasque with it, or a Solar, or daisy chain casting of Simulacrums, etc.
 

MechaTarrasque

Adventurer
I would say the sim would have the sorcery points, but it couldn't regain them once used, since they can't "regain expended spell slots" and regained sorcery points can be, in effect, regained spell slots.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
If a high level Sorcerer casts Wish to cast Simulacrum:
  • Does the simulacrum have access to sorcery Points?
  • Does the simulacrum gain the points back on a long rest?
  • Can it use meta magic?
  • does it gain the benefits of a draconic sorcerer?

If yes to all, isnt that super strong?

I think by the RAW the answer is 'yes' to all. The description of Simulacrum mentions explicitly only that "expended spell slots" aren't regained, and sorcery points are not spell slots, although they can be converted into them.

The RAI is probably different, my guess is that the intent was to limit a duplicate spellcaster to cast one day worth of spells, but not more. I would expect a Sage Advice on this matter to tell you that you shouldn't allow sorcery points to be regained either.

In fact, there already is a Sage Advice that says that ALSO hit points were not meant to be regained! Even tho the spell description does not say so, check this tweet: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/09/simulacrum-and-undying-creature/

Overall it sounds to me like the RAI might be for a Simulacrum to be more generally not able to regain anything at all, so as to prevent abuse. I don't see why a duplicate spellcaster shouldn't be able to get spells slots back while a duplicate barbarian should be instead able to get rage back, or a duplicate warlock be able to get mystic arcanum back (which is high-level spells without using slots...).

Sadly, the spell is just plain broken beyond repair, so as a DM you'll have to rule something one way or another to prevent abuse.

A possible house rule to harmonize results a bit could be to allow a simulacrum to take 3 short rests (altogether, NOT every day) before being unable to benefit from them anymore, and in any case not regain HP during those short rests, and not be able to take any long rest at all.

Another possible house rule, albeit more harsh, is plain and simply change the duration from "until dispelled" to 24 hours.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Does the simulacrum have access to sorcery Points?
Yes.

Does the simulacrum gain the points back on a long rest?
Interesting question. By the simplest reading of the rules, yes, but there's a case to be made that this should fall under the heading of "regaining spell slots." If it were my campaign, I'd rule that the simulacrum gets no benefits of any kind from resting. (I do wonder why they didn't just write it that way in the PHB, since that seems to be the intention.)

Can it use meta magic?
Yes.

does it gain the benefits of a draconic sorcerer?
Yes.

If yes to all, isnt that super strong?
Yup. Simulacrum is crazy good, even if your DM bans chain-casting shenanigans (as any sensible DM should).
 
Last edited:

Phazonfish

B-Rank Agent
If a high level Sorcerer casts Wish to cast Simulacrum:
  • Does the simulacrum have access to sorcery Points?
  • Does the simulacrum gain the points back on a long rest?
  • Can it use meta magic?
  • does it gain the benefits of a draconic sorcerer?

If yes to all, isnt that super strong?

The phrasing is really up to interpretation, but the spell says "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful" and if regaining spell slots counts as "becoming more powerful" I would imagine regaining sorcery points does too.

Simulacrum is a very powerful spell, no matter who casts it or how. You could duplicate a Tarrasque with it, or a Solar, or daisy chain casting of Simulacrums, etc.

Do note that Simulacrum can only target humanoids and beasts, so you cannot duplicate Tarrasques and such.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
I've only seen Simulacrum used once in actual play (I just don't play a lot at the levels where it becomes available). The Divination Wizard copied himself - and now had 6 Portents, was able to affect 2 rolls per turn, and the simulacrum regains their 3 portents on a rest.

It was sick - the big bad couldn't make a successful attack or a save if the divination wizard didn't want them too. They had to burn through all their legendary saves in the first turn or two.
 

thethain

First Post
RAW: It can regen anything that isn't specifically spell slots. Even HP as it is given a way to heal using are herbs and minerals, but doesn't say it can't regen hp using long or short rests or healing spells.

However, your DM is going to be the ultimate arbiter when dealing with grossly broad and powerful spells. Depending on the DM, he may allow it or may disallow recovering ANY limited resource abilities (action surges, rages, ki points, wildshape).
 

Undrhil

Explorer
RAW: It can regen anything that isn't specifically spell slots. Even HP as it is given a way to heal using are herbs and minerals, but doesn't say it can't regen hp using long or short rests or healing spells.

However, your DM is going to be the ultimate arbiter when dealing with grossly broad and powerful spells. Depending on the DM, he may allow it or may disallow recovering ANY limited resource abilities (action surges, rages, ki points, wildshape).

I'd counter that the fact that the spell lists out a specific way to 'repair' the Simulacrum indicates that it doesn't regain hitpoints normally. If it did, there would be no need to ever use the 'repair' option since it's very costly and time consuming.

Sorcery points and meta-magic would be fine and the Simulacrum would regain sorcery points with rests as normal; however, using sorcery points to gain spell slots would be considered "getting more powerful" and wouldn't work. Note the wording of that class feature in the Sorcerer class- it doesn't use sorcery points to regain spell slots; it uses sorcery points to make spell slots. Therefore, becoming more powerful. Therefore, not gonna work. And, yes, a Draconic Sorcerer who uses Simulacrum on himself after level 14 would have a Simulacrum who could use a bonus action to produce wings and gain a fly speed.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
however, using sorcery points to gain spell slots would be considered "getting more powerful" and wouldn't work. Note the wording of that class feature in the Sorcerer class- it doesn't use sorcery points to regain spell slots; it uses sorcery points to make spell slots. Therefore, becoming more powerful.

Not really the intent. Otherwise also using "rage" increases your damage, meaning you get "more powerful", and should not work? It's very clear that the RAI here is to prevent a simulacrum to learn new things, not to prevent it from using regular class abilities.
 

thethain

First Post
Not really the intent. Otherwise also using "rage" increases your damage, meaning you get "more powerful", and should not work? It's very clear that the RAI here is to prevent a simulacrum to learn new things, not to prevent it from using regular class abilities.

Honestly I think the intent was to copy an old iconic spell and hope no one has to ever deal with it, because its a horribly powerful broken spell. And when wished: removes the limiting aspects of time and money.

There isn't a way to balance a spell that *almost* doubles your spell slots for the day, and allows a second concentration, and doubles your action economy.

Hell who says you even want to keep a copy of yourself. Maybe you want to go meet a 20 cha paladin and make a sim of them and have a permanent +5 Saves, Protection from evil and good/fear/layonhands bot. Paladin following you around all the time. Or make a duplicate of your monk and have another 4x stun attempts a turn machine. Or you duplicate a Mystic, now its using psi points to basically cast spells, but they aren't spells, (well maybe if wuju).

There isn't a way to box in an ability so powerful as "You get another member of your party forever" and pretend its balanced.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Honestly I think the intent was to copy an old iconic spell and hope no one has to ever deal with it, because its a horribly powerful broken spell. And when wished: removes the limiting aspects of time and money.

There isn't a way to balance a spell that *almost* doubles your spell slots for the day, and allows a second concentration, and doubles your action economy.

Hell who says you even want to keep a copy of yourself. Maybe you want to go meet a 20 cha paladin and make a sim of them and have a permanent +5 Saves, Protection from evil and good/fear/layonhands bot. Paladin following you around all the time. Or make a duplicate of your monk and have another 4x stun attempts a turn machine. Or you duplicate a Mystic, now its using psi points to basically cast spells, but they aren't spells, (well maybe if wuju).

There isn't a way to box in an ability so powerful as "You get another member of your party forever" and pretend its balanced.

Well I did say in a previous post that IMHO it's broken beyond repair, meaning that no amount of Sage Advice can really solve the problems...

To be honest, I've never seen Simulacrum in play, not even in previous editions. When I first read the 5e version of the spell, I actually thought for a moemnt that they might have demoted the spell to duplicating only the natural/racial abilities of it, not including the class-based abilities, tho the bit about not regaining spell slots clearly implies they do have spellcasting and thus I was wrong.

And yes the spell is there definitely because it's a legacy of older editions, but in fact AFAIK the "cannot level up" was present in those previous versions as well.

The spell is more problematic in 5e compared to 3e because of two reasons:

- in 5e it has half the HP of the original creatures, while in 3e it had half the level or HD, which also meant half HP but that's a HUGE difference (and it makes it literally impossible for a simulacrum to cast simulacrum itself)

- in 3e it costed a lot of XP to cast... XP costs were largely hated of course, but now we have the opposite problem because the GP cost is not enough to prevent abuse
 

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