Simulating D&D4E

[That One Guy]

{Excellent}

First, I gotta' say that was awesome.

So, now for my actual response. How do I deal with it? I ignore the flavour text as written. Continue on.

HP/HS/2W? I had accepted the idea of HP being a combination of adrenaline, blood, will power, etc. A hit to the armor might bruise, but on some characters that might bruise their ego enough that they'll just give up. I accepted this idea, then I read a couple pages from a random library book - Women in Battle. There are several women who have lived through cuts and bullet holes (the parts I read were more Renaissancey/18th century) and gathered their resolve to succeed in battles. Second wind. I've never been a fan of the historically accurate D&D arguments, but... it was very convincing to me that it is well within reason that a person could recover. Also, when a person gets a relatively big damage number or crit I always add, "The wound is bleeding and if you don't tend to it, you will probably die." Thus, the 5 minutes breather is (like others have said) patching up wounds etc.

Encounter/Daily mechanic? As others have said, encounter is a gambit or slightly difficult spell/technique to pull off that probably won't work again - especially if the enemies can see it coming. Dailies IMO take an amount of energy out of a person. But, I want to put in a house rule where a person can burn health/Healing surges (akin to the warlock's feat... but more damaging to make the feat worthwhile) to pull more out of oneself.

Action points are a risk as well or a surge of adrenaline etc. It's situational.

That is 4e. It has rules that have not so great fluff. The fluff for combat is... fake. It's an invite to make something that works for you and your group. I feel so daft for not realizing that before.

The ones I have trouble with are magic items. I say that they have a reserve of magical energy that flows back through lack of use. It's weak... but it works. Also thinking of houseruling a way for some characters to pull an artificer and force energy into such items. Can't be as powerful as theirs... but yeah.

That's how I do it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Healing Surges, Encounters, Dailies, they all represent the energy source that heroes in novels, movies and TV shows tap in to do there awesome stunts, and to keep going after being beaten up, stabbed, shot, wounded or tortured to death and being reanimated by modern medicine.

n Torg, this energy source is "possibility energy". Of the many realities (possibilities) that could come true when you're enemy swings a sword at you (you are beheaded, you take a wound, he misses), only one can come true, as guaranteed by the Everlaw of One. And heroes have the power - subconciously maybe, but nevertheless the power - to manipulate the possibilities so that the less likely but more favorable come true.

The entire spectrum of James Bond, Jack Bauer, Neo, John McClane, the Spartans, Boromir, Conan, Ripley, Sarah Connor, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Indiana Jones any Jackie Chan or Jet-Li character uses this energy source.
But how it looks like or how it is explained - that can be anything.
Neo has his skills because he's in the Matrix. McClane has it because of superior determination and toughness. A Wuxia Fighter might use a kind of magic.

And so it also works for PCs.
A Cleric using a Second Wind - he might utter a short prayer that mends his worst wounds and stops the bleeding. A Fighter using his Second Wind might just grew a little angrier. An Elf near 0 hit points might look pretty normal, except a little sweat on his face and his hair gone a little chaotic, while a human might be covered in blood, an arrow in his left arm (don't worry, the armor took most of the force).

A Fighter dropping a Minion might look very close to him using a final Brutal Strike on the big evil guy - bone-breaking, blood splattering, brutal, and swift.

The only difference between D&D 4 and fiction? Fiction often limits itself to one "energy source". D&D 4 has several power sources which you can use to guide your flavor. But that's because most fiction doesn't cover spellcasters, miracle-working priests and martial artists in one story.

I

 

[rounser]

I just meant that taking on a dragon or a clan or Fire Giants with just your trusty sword and shield is its own kind of magic. A martial, physical kind. The same kind a dragon or a titan has. It's not about material components and odd cantations, but about digging deep down within yourself and finding a kind power that simply does. not. give. in.

No, that's "fighting spirit", "courage", "resolve", "foolhardiness", "valor", "wit", "skill", "luck", "bravado", "swashbuckling" etc. But definitely not magic. Unless you're playing word games, which you appear to be attempting to do here.

And you can play word games with a word like magic. It's as bad as the word fantasy in that respect. But when the hero with his sword, or the thief with his grappling hook go and do their thing, they live by their skill, wits, and resolve. No parlor tricks and fairydust, even if you're attempting to obfuscate resolve and determinedness as being equivalent to that, which they're not.

A dragon or titan don't share the same fighting spirit as Our Hero, anyway. If they did, he or she wouldn't be able to overcome them like that, with a blade, skill, wits, and some luck. So I don't think we're on the same page here.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

No, that's "fighting spirit", "courage", "resolve", "foolhardiness", "valor" etc. But definitely not magic. Unless you're playing word games, which you appear to be attempting to do here.

And you can play word games with a word like magic. It's as bad as the word fantasy in that respect. But when the hero with his sword, or the thief with his grappling hook go and do their thing, they live by their skill, wits, and resolve. No parlor tricks and fairydust, even if you're attempting to obfuscate resolve and determinedness as being equivalent to that, which they're not.

A dragon or titan don't share the same fighting spirit as Our Hero, anyway. If they did, he or she wouldn't be able to overcome them like that, with a blade, skill, wits, and some luck. So I don't think we're on the same page here.

Yes, it is word games. All this "valor", "fighting spirit" stuff is ultimately just a word-game trying to explain why some people achieve "more" then others. Why not just call it something "supernatural" - magic, in some way. Not the fairy dust or parlor trick magic, true, but nevertheless not something meant for normal people to do.

On the other end - magic can also be just determination, training, wits or luck. The will to understand the laws of the universe and to bend or break them, to find energy where none should be by all mortal understanding of it, and to achieve the impossible by persistance, inventiveness, and ultimiately a understanding of the world not achievable by anyone.

It is just a word game, because in the end, magic is something made-up. It is a concept that exists in our minds and our language, but not in the real world. Just like "Honor", "Courage" or "Resolve". Nothing that can be quantified or measured. It is a high concept, not relying on physical realities, something only existing in our minds, and as such, it is all "supernatural".

 

[rounser]

All this "valor", "fighting spirit" stuff is ultimately just a word-game trying to explain why some people achieve "more" then others. Why not just call it something "supernatural" - magic, in some way.

Because that misses the point. The thing that makes these things special is that they are most definitely not supernatural! In a world of villains who cheat with spells, and callous gods who supernaturally toy with mortals, the hero, a mere mortal, with only his blade and mundane skills and conviction to back him up, triumphs.

To suggest that there's something supernatural at work, that it's not the hero's mundane, honest, salt-of-the-earth courage, skill and luck that saved the day, is a travesty against heroism. If you think you understand heroics, how can you even write such things?

There are martial heroes which are indeed supernatural in their basis (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon springs to mind) and whose level of skill transcends the mundane in the milieu of that world. But they're thankfully not the default, and IMO shouldn't be the default.

The model for D&D, described in my first two paragraphs, is the pulp model - where to describe the hero's struggles as being due to a supernatural force would be an absolute insult, even if you called his courage, spirit or skill supernatural. The point is that this is a normal guy prevailing against the supernatural, by mundane means, and only mundane means. (Give or take a magic sword, and some healing potions maybe....but otherwise, courage, wit, skill, resolve and luck all the way, bwana. Power to the people, he was just a farmboy with a dream, no-one special etc.)

Wuxia, Greek myth, even Star Wars can get the supernatural involved in the martial, but I don't think that's the right direction for D&D. It's already much too superpowered without making the martial skills supernatural. And it means that D&D can no longer "do" a lot of it's key influences (Howard and Leiber for instance. And yes, I know the Mouser dabbled in the odd spell occasionally - not the point).

The only outside explanation I'd accept is narrativium, or "The Code" which is followed by Cohen and his Silver Horde. Terry Pratchett is very keyed up on these unwritten rules of storytelling.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Because that misses the point. The thing that makes these things special is that they are most definitely not supernatural! In a world of villains who cheat with spells, and callous gods who supernaturally toy with mortals, the hero, a mere mortal, with only his blade and mundane skills and conviction to back him up, triumphs.

To suggest that there's something supernatural at work, that it's not the hero's mundane, honest, salt-of-the-earth courage, skill and luck that saved the day, is a travesty against heroism. If you think you understand heroics, how can you even write such things?

As I see it, magic and "martial skill" are just different ways for your convictions to channel. You seem to attach a certain "moral value" to these, but the key difference between a fighter and a wizard seem to be that the fighter spend all his conviction to become the strongest, meanest, toughest guy around the block, while the wizard spend it to unravel the mysteries of the world and gain access to untold power.
The fighter is proud of his ability to survive without "fancy mind tricks", while the wizard is proud of his intellect and his ability to bend the physical laws to his will.

 

[RSKennan]

Huh? Ok, you lost me here. Is this some Eastern philosophy thing that I've never heard of? I know what chakras are, and not just the Xena ones.

I'm not talking about Xena- it's just that Chakram is the correct plural of Chakra, and I wanted to head off someone correcting me for using "Chakras".

I was just saying that I tend to look at magic item slots (neck slot, head slot, ring slots) as corresponding to places in the soul that have a different purpose. Rings tends to have certain magics in them compared to head slot items, So I justify it by thinking that a particular slot keys into a specific part of the soul that's appropriate to a given type of magic.

For example, in real world mysticism, each chakra has a different purpose and a different type of energy that it is supposed to control/channel. They're like metaphysical organs.

This analogy doesn't have to use Chakras- you could use any concept that makes sense to you- Chi, Caballistic Sephiroth, or something else entirely. I just use it as an explanation of the *kind* of thing I see happening with magic item slots.

 

[Goumindong]

Because that misses the point. The thing that makes these things special is that they are most definitely not supernatural! In a world of villains who cheat with spells, and callous gods who supernaturally toy with mortals, the hero, a mere mortal, with only his blade and mundane skills and conviction to back him up, triumphs.

To suggest that there's something supernatural at work, that it's not the hero's mundane, honest, salt-of-the-earth courage, skill and luck that saved the day, is a travesty against heroism. If you think you understand heroics, how can you even write such things?

No. All of these things are "supernatural". They are "magic by any other name". His "mundane skills" are anything but. And we know this because these heroes with their honest, salt-of-the earth courage, skill and luck consistently do things that are supernatural.

a "real world example"

What is the difference between a 30% income tax and a 30% loan on income to the government?

A: Nothing, they just look different on paper

A "known and accepted science fiction trope"

What is the difference between technology and magic?

A: Nothing, technology is just magic we can explain.

 

[Goumindong]

Now lets really define this by using some examples and then tying them into the classic DnD fantasy tropes.

In many Japanese cartoons there are characters who are able to achieve radically crazy feats by simply training a long time and really hard. It gets to the point where these people can "train" themselves to fly and "train" themselves to throw fireballs. All without the benefit of "magic".

In many Chinese movies there are characters who are able to achieve radically crazy feats by simply training a long time and really hard. It gets to the point where these people can "train" themselves to jump many times higher than a normal human, balance on bamboo, jump or run on water, punch, kick, or swing a sword many times harder and faster and more accurately than any human could possibly every be.

In many western movies there are characters who can take much more of a beating than anyone else around them. People who are able, by simply their strength of will, to shoot unrealistically accurately, take unreasonable beatings, run unreasonable distances, and be nearly prescient in combat situations.

In many real world instances. People are able to train themselves to achieve feats that would normally be considered "impossible" by a normal human. We see some of these people every day when we turn on the television and watch professional or amature sports. Some of these people live in monasteries. Some of these people are unknown to general public and live among us. When a 200 pound running back runs over 5 linebackers we believe it because we have seen it. When someone throws a baseball 250 feet on a line we believe it because we have seen it. When someone kicks a soccer ball around a corner, or hits a tennis ball 130 miles per hour we believe it because we have seen it. When very strong two people punch each other in the chest for two minutes be believe it because we have seen it.

DnD is somewhere between what we know in the real world can be done with training and what we see in our fiction. Fighters can't fly or throw fireballs, but they can punch a dinosaur so hard in the face so hard it hurts it and not give much of a hoot when that dinosaur turns around and breathes fire on him. They can swing swords so strongly and accurately to kill demons or angels in a single blow. Every once and a while they can fire 30 arrows in six seconds while moving 35 feet through a writing mass of death tentacles while dodging lightning bolts.

We don't call it "magic" because it doesn't fit into the magical trope, which is old guys in robes drawing on arcane powers to create objects and effects out of thin air. But in effect there is no difference between a magic spell that allows you to move 35 feet through death tentacles while dodging lightning bolts while shooting 30 arrows in 6 seconds, a magical creature that by nature of being magical can move 35 feet through death tentacles while dodging lightning bolts and shooting 30 arrows in 6 seconds. In all instances they are thoroughly supernatural and magical. They are only called by different names because they fit into different stereotypical examples of characters from fantasy literature drawn from different types of historic mythical stories[Arthur/Merlin being a magical/birthright example, Beowulf being a "ki" or "martial" example, Odysseus/Achilles being a martial/divine example, among many others]

 

[Mallus]

Since I think of D&D as a simulation of certain kinds of fiction, I don't usually worry about things like this; outside of the challenge, as DM, of narrating the effects of the various power/abilities in interesting ways, but if I had to...

... hit points are mostly morale (until you get to zero, that is). They represent a unit, err, person's ability to fight. I guess they also represent fatigue and a small amount of physical injury.

... healing surges are basically adrenaline and resolve. This neatly explains why a few rousing words (or your ally whacking as foe with his mace) can make you better.

... minions are unseasoned or unlucky (or both!) combatants that get dealt killing/disabling blows quicker than their more skilled/lucky comrades.

... the various martial powers represent opportunities to score more decisive/effective blows. You might question why these opportunities occur at such regular intervals, but then you might have to question why your life is so full of the chances for wealth and power, why your keep discovering all those monster-filled subterranean treasure vaults, or any other of the myriad contrivances and coincidences that D&D players have taken for granted since the early 70's.

BTW, here's the explanation for my Dragonborn Paladin's marking ability. I came up with this as a lark, but I think it's pretty amusing...

"His paladin's 'marking' ability involves him passing his sword under his cloaca, spraying it with his semen, and then flinging it foes. This, naturally, humiliates and enrages them. In addition, Dragonborn semen also has some mildly hallucinogenic properties, like the skin of certain frogs.

Scholars believe that this unorthodox combat technique has it's origins in Dragonborn reproductive biology. They conjecture that chemical agents in Dragonborn ejaculate sicken 'marked' females if they attempt to mate with, or even approach, other males."