Simulating D&D4E

[Logos7]

Yeah, To quell the simulationist/asshats in my group at the begining of my game i simply said.

Hit Points will be renamed to Fight Points from here on in.

Its something about the word hit , that implies being hit, as apposed to how long you have left in the fight, which is more or less how they work. Minions aren't some kind of supernaturally fragile person, he just doesn't have much FIGHT in him.

Just what I did, have been running a surprisingly quite table on the subject of realism in dnd since then.

Logos

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I agree with Logos7 and Mallus on the subject of hit points and healing surges. Mallus is on his own with Dragonborn biology.

That said the most problematic bit are daily powers, encounter powers are rare opportunities to lay the smackdown but the dailies are a bit of an issue, rarer opportunities is bit weak. Then again it does not bother me much and I have not tried very hard to justify them. It did not really occur to me to do so until I read threads like this and read the problems some people seem to have.

Though I suppose if you considered daily powers as a combination of a rare opportunity that also took a lot of effort, that might work.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I agree with Logos7 and Mallus on the subject of hit points and healing surges. Mallus is on his own with Dragonborn biology.

That said the most problematic bit are daily powers, encounter powers are rare opportunities to lay the smackdown but the dailies are a bit of an issue, rarer opportunities is bit weak. Then again it does not bother me much and I have not tried very hard to justify them. It did not really occur to me to do so until I read threads like this and read the problems some people seem to have.

Though I suppose if you considered daily powers as a combination of a rare opportunity that also took a lot of effort, that might work.

Like many game abstractions, it becomes a problem if you think hard about it. You an make up all kinds of explanations for them or dismiss them all. Once you're settled for one, you're off where you started before you thought harder about them. So I tend to claim that in the context of a hobby game we all play for fun*, sometimes we just shouldn't think too hard about it.


*Disclaimer:
There are lots of context where we should think very hard about stuff. Politics, Economics, Science, Biology, Sociology. You know, the hard, serious stuff that shapes our all personal life and the universe around us.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

The model for D&D, described in my first two paragraphs, is the pulp model - where to describe the hero's struggles as being due to a supernatural force would be an absolute insult, even if you called his courage, spirit or skill supernatural. The point is that this is a normal guy prevailing against the supernatural, by mundane means, and only mundane means. (Give or take a magic sword, and some healing potions maybe....but otherwise, courage, wit, skill, resolve and luck all the way, bwana. Power to the people, he was just a farmboy with a dream, no-one special etc.)

/snip

The only outside explanation I'd accept is narrativium, or "The Code" which is followed by Cohen and his Silver Horde. Terry Pratchett is very keyed up on these unwritten rules of storytelling.

Which is, of course, utter bollocks. Pulp heroes are most certainly NOT "everyday" men. They are, to a man, super powered individuals. Conan wasn't just a guy with a penchant for sword play. He was the last descendant of Atlantis, blessed by the gods, the greatest swordsman, etc. etc. Elric was a fantastically powerful wizard before he picked up Stormbringer, a fantastically powerful artifact. Kull, Solomon Kane, Quartermain, all "bigger than life" pulp heroes.

The idea of the "farmboy" that goes on to greatness is NOT a pulp fiction trope. It's a high fantasy trope.

Pulp heroes are best described by 4e in my opinion - people who, for whatever reason, can do things that no one else can. Who are just head and shoulders better than everyone else.

The big question is, can 4e do high fantasy actually. I'm not so sure really. 4e characters start out so much more powerful than everyone around them, right out of the gate, that high fantasy themes would be much more difficult to do.

I'd care if I was into genre emulation, but, I'm not, so, it doesn't really bother me.

 

[Mephistopheles]

All I ever needed to know about Second Wind I learned from rock'n'roll wrestling.

The defending champion has been stomped into the ground by his opponent, he seems to be down and out, it's unthinkable that he'd come back after the punishment he's received from the challenger. Then the champ, lying face down in the ring, looks up and spies the challenger snatching the title belt from his corner and strutting around like he's already won it, so somehow the champ pushes himself up, slowly, the challenger looks down at the champ as he hears the crowd suddenly chanting, and then, as the champ gets back to his feet, the crowd goes wild because by the look the champ has in his eye they know, without a doubt, that now it is well and truly ON.

We all know those wrestling shows are scripted for drama and cinematics but I think that's precisely what Second Wind is all about. It's a good tool that allows us to have those kind of moments in the game. The tricky bit is working them into the game in such a way that they represent a moment, like the wrestling example above or many others that you can think of from books or movies, rather than just a player saying "I use my Second Wind" and leaving it at that.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

For my own campaign setting, I'm considering using dragons as genetic engineers who actually created the Dragonborn, Elves, Eladdrin, etc. rather than the gods. The PCs/NPCs with levels are random evolutionary offshoots from common stock. These characters have the regenative features of having a buttload of hitpoints and healing surges. They also learn more quickly than others of its "stock", explaining how they can advance in power so quickly. The offset is that the mutation reduces the character's natural lifespan.

Please, think of the catgirls!

 

[Hussar]

To be honest, I find all the concerns about second wind to be really strange. Take a look at just about any movie with a fight scene, any book, novel, or whatever, with a fight scene, and you see second wind come up. The bad guy backs the hero into the corner, kicks the crap out of him, then the hero comes back and lays the smack down on the villain.

With all the commentary about 4e departing from genre conventions, I find it strange that this, which is pretty much part and parcel of the genre, is completely ignored.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Which is, of course, utter bollocks. Pulp heroes are most certainly NOT "everyday" men. They are, to a man, super powered individuals. Conan wasn't just a guy with a penchant for sword play. He was the last descendant of Atlantis, blessed by the gods, the greatest swordsman, etc. etc. Elric was a fantastically powerful wizard before he picked up Stormbringer, a fantastically powerful artifact. Kull, Solomon Kane, Quartermain, all "bigger than life" pulp heroes.

Pulp Heroes in Torg (Nile Empire & Terra) also get Pulp Powers. Some of them are out-right super-powers (like Electro Ray or Invisibility), but a few of them are far more subtle, like "Superskill" and "Super Attribute", and I suppose you will see them used by the majority of pulp characters. Indiana Jones certainly has a superskill with his Whip, and Richard O'Connel superskill Fire Combat...

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I am glad I found an old post of mine of this, so didn't have to retype it all, for Healing Surges:

Amount of Maximum HP: This represents how well that PC can deal with wounds inflicted upon them, and how badly a attack is inflicted upon them.

So for example a Fighter and Wizard at maximum HP are both hit for same amount of damage, however description wise the Wizard's attack was a lot more harsh. With a Minion given the 1 HP that one strike while doing the same damage was much more punishing to the Minion, ie: decapitation.

Decreasing of HP: As HP decreases this shows the the PC/Monster through a combination of wounds, pain, stress, fatigue, and other circumstances is slowly winding themselves down to suffering a incapacitating hit. Essentially their fighting capacity begins to deplete.

Healing Surges: A Healing Surge represents the PC/Monster being able to regain some composure and ignore some of the pain they have suffered and regain some of their fighting capacity. This is why things such as a Warlord's Healing Abilities can work, since he is helping the PC regain some of his fighting capacity, not actually fixing physical wounds.

As Healing Surges decrease however, this shows that it takes more and more effort to work past the various wounds, fatigue and other things piled against the PC to fight/work affectively. Thus when a PC reaches 0 Healing Surges they are at the end of their tether and cannot reach beyond their limitations.

In many regards Healing Surges is a better representation of actual physical health, because the more it decreases the more physically unable the PC is to fight affectively.

Describing This All: Essentially all together, this means that PCs with less Maximum HP when hit suffer worse wounds and are debilitated more by it. Though the actual physical stress these wounds have on the body truly show when Healing Surges begin to run out and wounds and other things pile up.

Thus a fighter with 0 Healing Surges but Maximum HP will look worse then a Wizard with full Healing Surges and almost no HP.

For Second Wind:

It works into how HP is represented, so a Second Wind doesn't actually heal any physical damage or anything of that sort. What it does do is shake off some of your fatigue, refocus your mind, etc.

For Powers:

As other people has put, they are all a matter of circumstance, luck, chance, etc. The amount of times all these things come together are equal to whether it is at-will, per-encounter or daily.

Minions:

A minion can take on a variety of different roles and views. My most common also in a way falls under a similar view that Powers are like. A minion is someone who in that instance of being hit is unfortunate enough that the blade beheads him, or he is flung into a spike, etc.

This way you could have say two identical orcs, one is a minion and one is not and it is simply circumstance that leads to the more rapid death of the one. Essentially it is the randomness/chaos of battle.

Another common use for minions is simply to represent those that truly are weak and cannot withstand any blow, so a weak, defenceless human for instance (a normal human asleep could be a minion for the idea of a stealth kill).

 

[Mallus]

I agree with Logos7 and Mallus on the subject of hit points and healing surges.

These seem really easy to justify.

Mallus is on his own with Dragonborn biology.

It isn't easy being me.

That said the most problematic bit are daily powers, encounter powers are rare opportunities to lay the smackdown but the dailies are a bit of an issue, rarer opportunities is bit weak.

I think it's important to recognize that there are places where the game mechanics --and the needs/goals of the game-- clash with the fictional world imagined while playing the game.