Size limits on forced movement of enemies?

[Al'Kelhar]

Many powers allow PCs to move enemies about the battlefield. Some appear to have size limits, e.g. Tide of Iron (Fighter At-Will 1). But a few, such as quite a few of the rogue powers (e.g Positioning Strike, Trick Strike, Deadly Positioning), do not.

Last session our rogue threatened to use Bait and Switch on a gelatinous cube that was blocking the corridor. So we have the absurd scenario of a 150 lb rogue stabbing 1000 cubic feet of jelly with his dagger and swapping places with it. Unsurprisingly, the DM said "er, no". But try as we might, we couldn't find any rules which said you can't move a 2-tonne lump of jelly with a 3rd-level encounter power.

So is anyone able to point me to any rules which place limits on the size of the creature (or object) a PC can forced move with a power?

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Khuxan]

There is no rule. Either use DM discretion or - my preferred option - find a flavourful way of describing the effect. For example, there's nothing stopping a rogue's maneuver prodding a jelly into moving, nor anything stopping a rogue from dodging past that cube.

 

[zoroaster100]

Yes, if possible, I think it's better to allow the power to have the intended effect. You just need to find a good explanation. In your case, the rogue doesn't force the jelly to move with his dagger, but stabs it in to moving towards him, and manages to tumble around or over the jelly, landing in the place the jelly previously occupied.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The power that you brought up targets will. Oozes have bad will, because they're predictable, easy to fool, and haven't got much of a mind to resist whatever you want to do to them.

"But the cube takes up the entire 10' corridor!" you say.

Well, I say it doesn't necessarily. It can, after all, make tentacle attacks on targets up to 2 squares away. That's a 10' tentacle that's no longer taking up corridor. Not to mention the fact that the creature itself can have foes within it's body - so it's not a far stretch to imagine that the rogue could use that as a route to switch places.

Really - saying "I find it unrealistic that you could switch places with a living, thinking 10' cube of acidic jelly" is being a bit unimaginative to say the least.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm with your DM on this

I recognise that there are two equally valid schools of thought here.

1) DM makes additional adjudications on the fly as the rules are not supposed to cover every eventuality.

2) Situation is justified on the fly as the rules cover all eventualities.

I recognise that I'm probably not doing justice to the second position here

Anyway, as long as everyone in a gaming group is on the same page about which approach is being used, I'm guessing that either is good!

Cheers

 

[Dausuul]

I'm with your DM on this

I recognise that there are two equally valid schools of thought here.

1) DM makes additional adjudications on the fly as the rules are not supposed to cover every eventuality.

2) Situation is justified on the fly as the rules cover all eventualities.

I recognise that I'm probably not doing justice to the second position here

Anyway, as long as everyone in a gaming group is on the same page about which approach is being used, I'm guessing that either is good!

Cheers

There's a third position in between the first two, which is something along the lines of:

3) Situation is justified on the fly if anyone can figure out how. If not, DM adjudicates.

 

[Bigwilly]

I think it works RAW, but I might make it a little tougher in the case of a corridor filling gelatinous cube.

RBDM approach: Rogue takes acid damage (possibly ongoing) for diving headfirst through a gelatinous cube

NSEDM approach: Rogue gets to make a skill check (acrobatics) or save (ref/fort) to avoid taking damage for leaping past/through the cube.

 

[jedrious]

I think it works RAW, but I might make it a little tougher in the case of a corridor filling gelatinous cube.

RBDM approach: Rogue takes acid damage (possibly ongoing) for diving headfirst through a gelatinous cube

NSEDM approach: Rogue gets to make a skill check (acrobatics) or save (ref/fort) to avoid taking damage for leaping past/through the cube.

Rogue take no damage because he tricked the cube into trying to extend itself and engulf him and that created enough space for him to dodge around the mass

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Yes, if possible, I think it's better to allow the power to have the intended effect. You just need to find a good explanation. In your case, the rogue doesn't force the jelly to move with his dagger, but stabs it in to moving towards him, and manages to tumble around or over the jelly, landing in the place the jelly previously occupied.

Given the name of the power - Bait and Switch - I think that should be the default action that happens in the game-world, no matter what the rogue is using it on. It's not "dig my dagger into him and pull him over here while I go to where he was". The rogue baits the enemy into a lunge, then slips past the monster to switch places, giving it a slash as he goes.

At least that's what "Bait and Switch" looks like in my head. I'd say that in general rogue powers aren't moving them by force of arms, but by cleverness and feinting (especially the Cha based ones).

 

[Plane Sailing]

FWIW I generally don't have problems with "vs Will" powers working on creatures of any size, since you are tricking them into movement.

The Gelatinous Cube is, IMO, a particularly special case since it actually does fill its 10ft cube space. For the cube I'll happily override some power effects based on movement.

For other things... I find it strange that you could use thunderwave and push the elder red dragon 2 squares - or push a goblin 2 squares (but can only push the dwarf 1 square). I do think that it would have been nice to have a creatures size effect the number of squares it can be pushed, pulled or slid. Something I might consider as a house-rule in fact.

Cheers