Skill checks and Aid Another

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Weak.

Well, shoot, if that's all I have to do in order to debunk your points ...

If there are no loose boards or loose leaves, how do you help them?

First rule of adventuring: there are always loose boards or leaves.

As to how you help them if there aren't, you help them by pointing out where to walk

You are assuming there are difficulties that make it MORE difficult to do the skill.

No - I'm assuming common situational modifiers. Oddly enough, the bonus from Aid Another is exactly the same in magnitude as the standard good and bad circumstances modifiers. Coincidence? Hardly.

Plus, TALKING kind of defeats the purpose of moving silently, doesn't it?

Well, yeah, if you're incapable of talking below a shout.

That's silly.

Well, your comments are silly.

Performer One has 22 Ranks in Lute.

Performer Two has 1 Rank in Lute and sounds like a cat screeching in the night.

There is NO way that Performer Two can help Performer One, he can only hinder him.

Really? Cause 1 Rank in Perform (Lute) means that you know how to play your instrument - especially when you consider the +6 bonus our example gets from Charisma.* So, this "lout," who's only undergone a little bit of formal training, nonetheless knows how to work a crowd. And he does it by playing second fiddle to the main performer. He plays a solid base line, on which the main performer can loop all kinds of variations.

Or have you never noticed that a symphony can sound pretty good even if one of the minor players misses a note from time to time?

* - Or were you assuming a +1 total bonus? 'Cause that's not what you said. And even then, there's roughly a 50% chance for the "idiot" to get the baseline right, and thereby improve the performance - which he can do even if it's just pretending to play and pantomiming to the crowd at appropriate junctures.

This should use two individual skill checks (one of which is great and one probably lousy) for success on both, not one plus an Aid Another.

And the reason is ... ?

Look. My wife is a professional musician and a band director. The youngest children she teaches, individually, stink from a technical point of view. They're just learning - they've got that +1 bonus you're talking about above. However, get them together in a band, and the fact that A's a little sharp and B's a little flat tends to even out. They sound better together than they do apart.

And that's Aid Another.

And because he is not looking at the rope he is balancing on, he misteps and dies.

You are stretching.

Guess he should've rolled higher then, eh?

And if Lord Selacchii really, really, really HATES the words 'Inasmuch' and 'hereunto.'?

Sounds like a failed Aid Another roll.

I guess you did not read the skill.

Or maybe I did, eh? Perhaps I assumed that the person Aiding Another was the one reading the document?

There is a difference between training and aiding.

Stay on topic.

I am. How does a Gymnastics coach help someone do a cartwheel or a tumbling pass? They do so by pushing the tumbler in the right way at the right moment. Of course, the coach has to know when to push, and has to push in the right way ...

Haven't you ever watched the Olympics?

And if it is a Puller-Glocer two-stripe lock?

Failed Aid Another check, and the guy's no worse off than he was before.

"You're stretching."

You are making assumptions that people can only help, not hinder, on solo activities.

No - I'm making the assumption that there's no such thing as a penalty coming from a botched Aid Another roll.

Oh, wait, no, I'm not. The rules are.

Advice is NOT Aid.

Yes, it is.

You can help another character achieve success on his or her skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort.

Define cooperative effort.

Note the phrase "cooperative effort".

I did. Perhaps you should, as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

You could let them know when they doing things that are making noise, hand signals would work.

Cool.

We automatically get the "hand signals" language skill, just by doing Aid Another.

Spotters.

Hard to have Spotters for Tumble Through.

How do you help someone else Tumble Through an enemy? Kick him in the rump???

Mostly, what you guys are doing is "offering advice" as "Aid Another".

There are many circumstances where "offering advice" should be insufficient, especially physical skills.

Aid Another should be used for situations where you physically help someone, not where you give them advice.


Actually, I think the game mechanic is flawed as well. Someone with a low number of ranks should rarely be able to help someone with a high number of ranks in a high DC activity. They are not skilled enough.

I especially dislike that fact that anyone with 9 total in a skill will always succeed in Aiding, regardless of the difficulty of the task and the skill of the original character doing the task.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I especially dislike that fact that anyone with 9 total in a skill will always succeed in Aiding, regardless of the difficulty of the task and the skill of the original character doing the task.

If the task is difficult enough, +2 won't make a difference to the result anyway...

-Hyp.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Cool.

We automatically get the "hand signals" language skill, just by doing Aid Another.

'Cause, ya know, it takes a lot of training to be able to pull off the "Shhh!" hand signal and the "No" head shake and the "Walk over there" point.

 

[KarinsDad]

'Cause, ya know, it takes a lot of training to be able to pull off the "Shhh!" hand signal and the "No" head shake and the "Walk over there" point.

'Cause, ya know, it takes a lot of training to be able to both look at the leaves on the ground that you are trying to silently move over AND to look at the guy doing the "Shhh!" hand signal and the "No" head shake and the "Walk over there" point.

One eye looks down and one eye looks behind you.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yeah, for some reason I knew that KD's "That's ridiculous, it would never make sense!" argument, when countered by "Here's a number of situations in which it does make sense," would turn into "Heh - let me make fun of your situations."

I am so gosh-darned psychic it hurts sometimes.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, for some reason I knew that KD's "That's ridiculous, it would never make sense!" argument, when countered by "Here's a number of situations in which it does make sense," would turn into "Heh - let me make fun of your situations."

No, it was a "Heh - let me make fun of your nonsensical situations."


Like, your example of the Gym Coach who encourages you to make your Tumble Through roll in the game.

Woo hoo!!!


Face it. There are situations where no amount of "on the fly" advice is going to help a solo activity. The DM should decide when and if Aid Another is applicable, it should not by default be applicable every single time because Patryn can think of an off the wall case where he might be able to help out.

 

[irdeggman]

Face it. There are situations where no amount of "on the fly" advice is going to help a solo activity. The DM should decide when and if Aid Another is applicable, it should not by default be applicable every single time because Patryn can think of an off the wall case where he might be able to help out.

With the exception of the slam on Patryn - that is exactly how it is supposed to work.

Aid Another is circumstance driven, although I think it generally can be done unless the circumstances warrant otherwise and not vice versa.

 

[Storm Raven]

We automatically get the "hand signals" language skill, just by doing Aid Another.

If a character can't understand basic hand signals, then perhaps his or her Intelligence is below the range for sentient creatures.

Hard to have Spotters for Tumble Through.

How do you help someone else Tumble Through an enemy? Kick him in the rump???

Giving him a leg up would be one way. I remember a baseball play involving a pair of outfielders where (through a combination of timing and circumstance) one ended up essentially climbing up the other to reach a high fly ball at the wall. Couldn't this sort of situation also be used to help someone Tumble? Have you never seen troupes of acrobats, they certainly assist one another in their maneuvers, tossing and lifting one another regularly.

Really, if this is the basis of your argument, then your argument is as weak as wet tissue paper.

Mostly, what you guys are doing is "offering advice" as "Aid Another".

And exactly why shouldn't offering advice be helpful?

There are many circumstances where "offering advice" should be insufficient, especially physical skills.

In some cases, maybe. In the examples you've given? Nope.

Aid Another should be used for situations where you physically help someone, not where you give them advice.

And you gleaned this from the rules how?

Actually, I think the game mechanic is flawed as well. Someone with a low number of ranks should rarely be able to help someone with a high number of ranks in a high DC activity. They are not skilled enough.

And you gleaned this from the rules how?

I especially dislike that fact that anyone with 9 total in a skill will always succeed in Aiding, regardless of the difficulty of the task and the skill of the original character doing the task.

Do you also dislike the fact that someone with +15 in Spellcraft will always identify any 1st level spell that is being cast? Or anyone with +14 in Tumble will always be able to Tumble through a single opponent's square?

 

[KarinsDad]

Do you also dislike the fact that someone with +15 in Spellcraft will always identify any 1st level spell that is being cast? Or anyone with +14 in Tumble will always be able to Tumble through a single opponent's square?

Yes (and btw, to tumble through an opponent's square, you need +24, not +14).

There should be a failure chance for all activities, especially in the chaos of combat.

Let's take the example of Tumble Through.

It does not matter HOW skilled your opponent is in combat, your chances of Tumbling Through are exactly identical (and 100% at +24).

Your opponent could be a halfling commoner, or the King of the Dragons and it matters not.

Inadequate and poorly designed rules exist in the game.


Or the example of Spell Craft. First off, there could be HUNDREDS of first level spells in a given campaign, some of them mysterious and unique. But nope. Joe Wizard knows them all, even ones he has never encountered before, just because the rules say so.