Skill checks and Aid Another

[KarinsDad]

That, right there, is a fundamental misconception of the D&D game. Only attack rolls and saving throws ALWAYS have a chance of failure - or success, for that matter.

Skill checks can automatically fail (or succeed) if the PC's modifier too low (or high enough) for the skill activity being attempted.

That's a fundamental concept for 3.5 D&D.

If you don't like it, well, you don't have to play that way in your games, but that's how the rules are written.

First off, it is not a misconception. I understand how the rules are written and I agree with you that this is how the rules are written.

But, this is a rules forum. That means that we can also talk about poorly designed rules and why we do not like them. Not just what they are or how to interpret them.

For example, there should be no fundamental difference between combat and skills. Fighting should be a skill. Casting spells should be a skill. The rules are not implemented that way, but they should be. All major active actions should be skills.

Rules should be consistent. If your spell casting can be disrupted by getting attacked and damaged, a Tumble Past movement action should be disruptable by damage.

And yes, if the best Fighter in the world will always miss with 5% of his swings, the best Rogue in the world should always miss searching for 5% of traps and the best Wizard in the world should always miss correctly casting his spells 5% of the time.

Agreed. The rules are not written that way.

 

[Storm Raven]

For example, there should be no fundamental difference between combat and skills. Fighting should be a skill. Casting spells should be a skill. The rules are not implemented that way, but they should be. All major active actions should be skills.

Why? (I mean, other than that you think it should be so).

Rules should be consistent. If your spell casting can be disrupted by getting attacked and damaged, a Tumble Past movement action should be disruptable by damage.

Why?

What you complain of as a flaw, others (including, apparently, the designers of the game) see as a feature. Why are they all wrong, but you are right?

 

[KarinsDad]

Why? (I mean, other than that you think it should be so).

...

Why?

What you complain of as a flaw, others (including, apparently, the designers of the game) see as a feature. Why are they all wrong, but you are right?

Rules consistency.

One of the major reasons many people do not play DND is because it has so many different mechanics to do things.

Just look at Disarm, Trip, Grapple, Overrun, etc. Most of them could use very similar mechanic with possibly just a few action specific differences, but they do not.

Look at Turn Undead. No reason for it to be a weird different mechanic, but it is.


I am not saying that I am right and they are wrong (you are saying that I am saying that), I am saying that they could have improved a lot of areas of 3.5 that they did not.


In fact, I challenge you to take a poll here (and note, this is a forum of people who are really into DND and its rules) and asked people for all of the special attacks (Aid another, Bull rush, Charge, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Throw splash weapon, Trip, Turn (rebuke) undead, Two-weapon fighting), do they have to look up the rules:

Never
Sometimes for some of them
Sometimes for most of them
Often for some of them
Often for most of them
Most of the Time for some of them
Most of the Time for most of them
Always

and I suspect that you will get a lot of different answers.

Why?

Because the rules for the special attacks are not consistent between themselves. Only people who are real experienced with the game (or have phenomenal memories) can run all of the special attacks correctly without referencing the rules.

The rules for skills are a lot more consistent (figure out DC, roll dice add bonuses).


If the rules were more internally self consistent, I suspect (in fact I know just based on people I know who refuse to play) that more people would play the game.

 

[Storm Raven]

Rules consistency.

One of the major reasons many people do not play DND is because it has so many different mechanics to do things.

Just look at Disarm, Trip, Grapple, Overrun, etc. Most of them could use very similar mechanic with possibly just a few action specific differences, but they do not.

Most of them do. Most of them use some variant on "touch attack + opposed d20 roll". I'm not seeing these actions as being resolved in ways radically different from one another. Let's look at the mechanics for these actions:

Disarm: opposed d20 roll.
Trip: touch attack followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Grapple: touch attack, followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Overrun: move, followed by an opposed d20 roll.

Look at Turn Undead. No reason for it to be a weird different mechanic, but it is.

Legacy, mostly. It is the odd man out, but it is just about the only one.

I am not saying that I am right and they are wrong (you are saying that I am saying that), I am saying that they could have improved a lot of areas of 3.5 that they did not.

You are saying that the rules are wrong and should be changed. Thus far, all we have is your say-so.

In fact, I challenge you to take a poll here (and note, this is a forum of people who are really into DND and its rules) and asked people for all of the special attacks (Aid another, Bull rush, Charge, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Throw splash weapon, Trip, Turn (rebuke) undead, Two-weapon fighting), do they have to look up the rules:

Aid Another: a d20 roll against DC 10.
Bull Rush: move, followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Feint: an opposed d20 roll.
Sunder: an opposed d20 roll.
Charge: a modifer to your attack roll and AC.
Two-Weapon Fighting: an additional attack plus a modifier to your attack roll.
Throw Splash Weapon: a touch attack.

Most of these have rules remarkably similar to one another. Most (other than charge and two weapon fighting which are basically just modifiers) involve either a d20 roll against a static DC, or an opposed d20 roll.

If the rules were more internally self consistent, I suspect (in fact I know just based on people I know who refuse to play) that more people would play the game.

Or not. The current rule set has more players than any other RPG. Arguing that some people are confused by the remarkably similar actions of trip, grapple, sunder, and disarm seems to me to be crying about not much of anything.

 

[DonTadow]

Good ideas on the aid another. I hadn't really thought much of it until a player of mine began making it her favorite action. I'm thinking about adding a role playing component to it. They'll probably have to tell me from now on how they intend to aid.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'm thinking about adding a role playing component to it. They'll probably have to tell me from now on how they intend to aid.

Just make sure to provide hints if you know of a way for the player to do it, but they can't think of one.

 

[cmanos]

That's silly. {aiding another with lute playing]

Performer One has 22 Ranks in Lute.

Performer Two has 1 Rank in Lute and sounds like a cat screeching in the night.

There is NO way that Performer Two can help Performer One, he can only hinder him.

No, there is definitely ways Player 2 can aid. Playing a simple basso continuo or a simple harmony can add a lot to a melody. Player 2's Aid roll is to show that it helps. If not, Player 1 is good enough to cover up the badness of player 2.

And because he is not looking at the rope he is balancing on, he misteps and dies.

Actually, you balance better when looking where you are going, not where your feet are.....

Aid Another should only be used when both characters can work together cooperatively (e.g. bandage wounds together), not when one person can tell the other what to do (i.e. advice).

I beg to differ. Character 2 decides to Aid Character one with his Armor Class. "On Your Left!" is a perfectly acceptable aid in that case. The Roll made by player 2 is to see if the intent was communicated clearly enough. I don't think one needs to physically be aiding the other person to aid the person.

 

[darthkilmor]

Good ideas on the aid another. I hadn't really thought much of it until a player of mine began making it her favorite action. I'm thinking about adding a role playing component to it. They'll probably have to tell me from now on how they intend to aid.

We did something like this in my group once, the paladin had to "seduce" a demon-possessed/transformed/something lady to get her un-demonized, and we all gave him tips on stuff to do(with us all giving tips it was like an extra +10). Stuff like, naughty things to say in abyssal, rope use to make him look tied up, etc. it was very silly but fun RP'ing.

 

[KarinsDad]

Disarm: opposed d20 roll.
Trip: touch attack followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Grapple: touch attack, followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Overrun: move, followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Aid Another: a d20 roll against DC 10.
Bull Rush: move, followed by an opposed d20 roll.
Feint: an opposed d20 roll.
Sunder: an opposed d20 roll.
Charge: a modifer to your attack roll and AC.
Two-Weapon Fighting: an additional attack plus a modifier to your attack roll.
Throw Splash Weapon: a touch attack.

Most of these have rules remarkably similar to one another. Most (other than charge and two weapon fighting which are basically just modifiers) involve either a d20 roll against a static DC, or an opposed d20 roll.

Disarm:

melee weapon

1) attack of opportunity
2) opposed d20 roll (attack roll, +4 large weapon, +4 larger creature, -4 light weapon)
3) if fail, opposed d20 roll

OR not melee weapon

1) attack of opportunity
2) opposed d20 roll (attack roll, +4 large weapon, +4 larger creature, -4 light weapon, -4 not a melee weapon)


Trip:

not using melee weapon

1) touch attack
2) attack of opportunity
3) opposed d20 roll (+Str attacker, +Str or Dex defender, +4 per larger creature category, -4 per smaller creature category, +4 more than two legs defender)
4) if fail, opposed d20 roll

OR using melee weapon

1) opposed d20 roll (+Str attacker, +Str or Dex defender, +4 per larger creature category, -4 per smaller creature category, +4 more than two legs defender)
2) if fail, opposed d20 roll or drop weapon


Grapple:

1) attack of opportunity
2) touch attack
3) opposed d20 roll (BAB + Str + size)
4) damage
5) move


Bull Rush:

1) move
2) attack of opportunity (special exception, getting damaged does not stop the bull rush)
3) opposed d20 roll (+Str attacker, +Str defender, +4 per larger creature category, -4 per smaller creature category, +4 more than two legs defender, +2 charging)
4) move more if able and desired



Note: The order of Grapple for AoO and Touch Attack is opposite of Trip.

Note: The opposed d20 rolls use different mechanics (BAB vs. attack rolls vs. opposed ability rolls).

Note: Trip uses different mechanics if you are using a melee weapon or not, and Disarm uses different mechanics if you are attempting to disarm a melee weapon or not.

Note: Bull rush has two special exceptions to the rules. You do not get stopped from a damaging AoO and the opponent does not get to use his Dex to oppose you. Nor can he avoid you like he can with a Overrun. There is no chance of just letting him rush past you, he either bounces off, or you bounce back. NO REQUIRED TOUCH ATTACK. He automatically "touches you".

Note: Charge is limited to a straight line, but Bull Rush and Overrun are not.

Note: This does not even go into the page of rules on what happens if you are successfully grappling.


Just look at Disarm versus Sunder where they should be virtually identical rules except for the damage. Sunder uses different rules for non-weapons/non-shields than Disarm. Why? Nobody knows.


I could go on. The only similar thing at all for most of the special attacks is that you roll a D20.

 

[Storm Raven]

I could go on. The only similar thing at all for most of the special attacks is that you roll a D20.

The only problem with your argument is that you have not described different mechanics. You have described different modifiers for the same mechanic. The mechanic is the same in virtually every case: an opposed or static d20 roll. What modifiers are applied may change, but that's just adding whole numbers. If you have a problem adding whole numbers, you shouldn't be playing D&D to begin with, and I have no sympathy for you.