Skill checks and Aid Another

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If they had just rolled independently to Search, then Bob would have gotten a 19.

Exactly. There is absolutely no case in which, under KD's proposed house rule, the characters would be better off than had they just rolled separately.

 

[Storm Raven]

That would be a different house rule. Not necessarily a bad one either. We were not discussing that previously.

No, it is the standard rules. Two different characters can always make separate skill checks for a given thing. Your version of Aid Another means that they would always be better off working alone. Teamwork is always a hindrance, because working alone, someone would always get a better result. That makes no sense.

Your grasp of the rules, even rules you invented is tenuous, at best.

You are talking like someone who has no clue what he is talking about. In a master / apprentice situation, you do not typically have "Aid Another".

The master does the difficult / finely detailed stuff. The apprentice does the grunt work.

Head chefs let their assistants do the grunt work of most of the cooking while they do the finesse work of putting finishing touches on plates, preparing menus, determining how much of each spice is used, etc.

That is the definition of Aid Another. The master does some, the assistants do some. You simply don't understand the action, which is why you keep misunderstanding its application. The master does work, his assistants help him. This is Aid Another in action.

Yet again, when in doubt, attack.

It is an attack to point out that you don't understand how teamwork can be valuable?

 

[Twowolves]

Your opinion would have more weight if you learned how to read.

Yet again, when in doubt, attack.

You seem incapable of having a civilized discussion.

Why is that SR?

Physician, heal thyself!
Or: Pot, leave that poor kettle alone!

In any case, I learned to read at age 3, probably before you were potty trained.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

In a master / apprentice situation, you do not typically have "Aid Another".

Yes, you do. Until you can grasp this basic concept, your arguments will merely continue to demonstrate a total misunderstanding of what "Aid Another" is all about.

The master does the difficult / finely detailed stuff. The apprentice does the grunt work.

...giving the master a +2 bonus on his Craft (whatever) check. Yay! You got it!

Head chefs let their assistants do the grunt work of most of the cooking while they do the finesse work of putting finishing touches on plates, preparing menus, determining how much of each spice is used, etc.

...resulting in a +2 bonus to the chef's Profession (cook) check. See how easy that is?

It's obvious that you never worked in a nice restaurant.

It's obvious that you don't understand what "Aid Another" is modeling.

 

[KarinsDad]

Physician, heal thyself!
Or: Pot, leave that poor kettle alone!

In any case, I learned to read at age 3, probably before you were potty trained.

I let you slide the first time you posted where it was obvious that you didn't read it.

The second time when you ranted on incorrectly, I didn't let it slide.

Why? Because people like you waste bandwidth since you cannot have the common courtesy to actually read what people write before you mouth off.

 

[Twowolves]

I let you slide the first time you posted where it was obvious that you didn't read it.

The second time when you ranted on incorrectly, I didn't let it slide.

Why? Because people like you waste bandwidth since you cannot have the common courtesy to actually read what people write before you mouth off.

I'm flattered by your benevolence, oh great Taker To Task of Those Who Don't Read Your Rantings to Your Satisfaction. But as you can see, your mighty pen has failed you, because no less than TWO other people posted replies to your mighty wisdom, both reading it the same exact way I did. So, are you just preaching to a house full of dullards, or could it be that your writing skills are to blame?

I read your idea, and it's lousy. Even when "clarified" by someone else, it's still lousy. It's a bad rule, and your tapdancing around the fact that you can't grasp what "aid another" means in a basic, funamental way doesn't help your case at all. Waste of bandwidth indeed!

What was that about attacking others when you've lost your case? Does this mean your post is an effective declaration of surrender? Huzzah!!

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it is the standard rules. Two different characters can always make separate skill checks for a given thing.

Always?

Oh, you mean like when the first character misses his Move Silent roll and the monster hears him?

Or when the first character attempts to disarm the trap and it goes off before the second one gets to try?

How exactly does making separate skill checks more helpful in these circumstances?

The answer is, it doesn't.

Your version of Aid Another means that they would always be better off working alone. Teamwork is always a hindrance, because working alone, someone would always get a better result. That makes no sense.

What makes no sense is that you are grasping at straws here.

My suggestion is merely a mechanics suggestion. It has nothing to do with two people trying the skills separately.

It has to do with a different way to resolve Aid Another and would be used in those circumstances in the game where you would use Aid Another.

Get off the "two separate attempts" path because it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and leads to a dead end. Two separate skill attempts are already usually better than Aid Another in the core rules if you have the time and opportunity to make two separate rolls from two separate characters. In fact, two separate rolls are often drastically better than Aid Another in the core rules (i.e. main guy rolls 7, second guy rolls 18, the 18 is much better as a separate roll than it is to add 2 to the 7 to get 9).

Your argument here is totally specious.

Your grasp of the rules, even rules you invented is tenuous, at best.

Nonsense.

Just because you disagree, does not mean that you are correct. It means that you are not taking the time to think things through as per your second sentence above.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Get off the "two separate attempts" path because it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and leads to a dead end. Two separate skill attempts are already usually better than Aid Another in the core rules if you have the time and opportunity to make two separate rolls from two separate characters.

There's the root of your problem (or, rather, our problem with your proposed rule).

Under the current Aid Another rule, having someone help you can end up with a result better than either of you could do alone.

Under your Aid Another rule, having someone help you will never end up with a result better than either of you could do alone.

That's a flaw. Or a bug. Or a feature. You pick. I pick flaw.

 

[Storm Raven]

What makes no sense is that you are grasping at straws here.

My suggestion is merely a mechanics suggestion. It has nothing to do with two people trying the skills separately.

And your mechanics suggestion has the end result that characters are always better off using their skills in separate checks. The end result of making seperate checks is always equal to or higher than working cooperateively using your proposed rule variant. The end result of working cooperatively is at best, equal to working alone, and possibly worse.

Since you seem to be unable to understand that rules cannot be evaluated in a vaccum, but must be evaluated in conjunction with other rules you cannot grasp how this is related to two separate checks. Your version of Aid Another means you will always be better off making two checks, and never better off working cooperatively. The standard version of Aid Another means you will sometimes be better off working cooperatively, and sometimes not. Your rule makes no sense.

Until you can figure out what Aid Another means to begin with (which you clearly do not, and every other poster in this thread has pointed this out), you will continue chasing your own tail on this, and making no headway.

 

[Storm Raven]

I think it would be salient to point out what the Aid Another action really adds to the game: it lets players with lesser skilled characters feel as though they are contributing to an effort. Thus, it helps keep players "in the game" and keeps their attention focused on the action on the table. This is a good thing. Making mechanics that make players feel their characters are left out of situations is not a good thing.