Skill System?

[Phlebas]

I am not liking the new skill system. I like that skills are 1pt per rank. However, I dislike the limits on rank and, moreso, the +3 bonus to trained class skills and lack of x4 skill points at first level ( not everyone maxes out a handful of skills to the exclusion of everything else and many DMs will put characters that are so highly specialized into situations that highlight the consequences of such hyper specializion).

but by level 4 (say) you can have a skill point in pretty much every class skil, and/or cross class. it does mean that first level characters are more one-trick ponies (aren't they always?) but at that level a lucky dice roll / good stats makes more of a difference on skil check, and it very quickly evens out over the first few level ups as you spread your points as wide as you want.

it seems a nice compromise between 3,5 complicated point spend (which i didn't have a problem with, but can see how it was to others) and getting a flat level + bonus (cf 4E)

 

[Johnny Angel]

Remember, there is no synergy in Pathfinder.

How do you know? My copy of the Alpha 3 rules don't mention it, but it doesn't mention a lot of things you're supposed to know to use the standing rules for. I need to know what's Hoyle because synergy is already built into my Pathfinder CharGen spreadsheet.

 

[GlassEye]

Table 5-2 lists skill check bonuses. It mentions the die roll, ability modifiers, racial modifiers, and armor check penalties. Synergy isn't mentioned. I believe (unfortunately, I don't know if this is assumption on my part or if I read it on Paizo's forum somewhere) that synergy was removed to simplify the skill system.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

but by level 4 (say) you can have a skill point in pretty much every class skil, and/or cross class.

Right-- I look forward to building a rogue with the new system. There are a lot of rogue class skills I'd spend one rank on, just get the +3 class bonus, for a total of +4 and my ability mod. It puts mundane DC15 and DC20 checks within reach.

I usually play the box-man but I'd love to occasionally have a smidgen of Bluff, Intimidate, Forgery, Sleight of Hand, etc. (or whatever their Pathfinder equivalents become).

There's lot of "background stuff" that I'd like to dabble in.

 

[Kaisoku]

I am not liking the new skill system. I like that skills are 1pt per rank. However, I dislike the limits on rank and, moreso, the +3 bonus to trained class skills and lack of x4 skill points at first level ( not everyone maxes out a handful of skills to the exclusion of everything else and many DMs will put characters that are so highly specialized into situations that highlight the consequences of such hyper specializion).

You'd think this would be a problem because of the first glance math... less skillpoints = less option/choices, right? But if you actually put it to practice, the new system is better in almost every way, short of a few exceptions.

Let's take a Rogue with 10 skillpoints (8 + 2 from Int), and compare.

3.5e would have 40 skillpoints to spend, but cross class would be at 2:1 ratio and would need to spend them up to 4 ranks at 1st level.

PRPG would have 10 skillpoints, for any 10 skills you want. Class skills would give you a +3 automatically.

So let's say the Rogue wants to be like Indiana Jones, so not only will he have a few combat related skills (Bluff, Sense Motive and Tumble), but also troubleshooting skills (Disable Device, Search, Spot, Open Lock) as well as at least a few ranks in some "Archeologist" skills (some Knowledge, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Appraise).

3.5e would look like this at 1st level:

(24 points) 4 ranks in Bluff, Tumble, Disable Device, Search, Spot, Open Locks
(8 points) 2 ranks in Sense Motive, Decipher Script, Gather Information, Appraise
(8 points) up to 2 ranks in cross class skills for 4 Knowledge skills (if not local), or possibly some spent on Ride.
Even then, you might need to sacrifice someplace to get some languages in there too.


PRPG would look like this at 1st level (skills in paragraphs are the folded 3.5e skills):

4 "ranks" in: Acrobatics (Tumble, Balance, Jump), Perception (Search, Spot, Listen), Disable Device (Disable Device, Open Locks), Linguistics (Decipher Script, Forgery, Speak Languages), Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Gather Information), Bluff, Sense Motive.
1 rank in: any 3 of Knowledge and/or Ride (although local AND dungeoneering would be bumped to 4)


All in all, the PRPG character has a LOT more tricks up his sleeve, and fleshes out more associated capabilities (Forgery potential and languages, perception, tumble comes with balance and jump, etc).

So at first level, you'd have 1 less Knowledge/Ride option, and it'd be 1 point behind the 3.5e character.
Thing is... at 2nd level, the 3.5e character stays at an effective +2 (2.5 rounded down), while the PRPG character catches up and is only 1 behind in two skills.
By 3rd level, he'll surpass the 3.5e character in all his cross class endeavors, and has a couple extra feats over the levels to dump into Skill Focus too if he really wanted.


Between cross class points costing less, and the consolidation of the skills, a PRPG character will be more versatile with fewer points.
That's right... somehow Paizo came up with a combination of rules that makes skills easier to calculate and at the same time, do more for your character!

Really, the ONLY character build that would really feel hurt by this change would be one that put nearly every single skillpoint into a cross class skill. And even then, they'd only feel it for the first 2 or 3 levels before the PRPG character caught up and surpassed.

And what are you doing putting most of your skills into cross class anyways? There has to be a better class out there for you... most classes have access to the skills that fit their concept already.

 

[Primal]

Which is too bad, really. I know it's more complicated, but I always liked seeing where I could spend ranks to get synergies.

Of course I'm guessing that a lot of the old skill synergies got rolled into the same skill anyhow.

Wulf, someone posted (on the Paizo boards) a great synergy system that I'm using in my playtest campaign. It's actually very simple, but in my opinion engages the players the same way the Skill Challenges do -- you can always suggest which skills you think could "aid" your skill check, i.e. in the same way that the 'Aid Another' system works. Now, if you have 5 ranks in a skill, and it could logically aid in the task, you get +2 synergy bonus to your check (I've ruled that two "aiding" skills is the maximum per skill check). For example, if your PC tried to read an ancient text written in Draconic, you could suggest that your Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (History) would aid you in your check (you'd get +4 synergy bonus). Or, if you negotiated with the Evil Duke, you could use, for example, your Knowledge (Local) and Intimidate to supplement your Diplomacy check.

I have felt this system works marvelously, and it really engages my players, as they get to describe how those skills affect the check *in the story* via role-playing.

 

[Roman]

I am not liking the new skill system. I like that skills are 1pt per rank. However, I dislike the limits on rank and, moreso, the +3 bonus to trained class skills and lack of x4 skill points at first level ( not everyone maxes out a handful of skills to the exclusion of everything else and many DMs will put characters that are so highly specialized into situations that highlight the consequences of such hyper specializion).

Greg K, you might want to check out the following, which I believe preserves the benefits of the Pathfinder RPG skill system, but deals with your complaint: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=235704

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I like it, but, yes, if you liked taking 1 or 2 ranks in a bunch of skills at first level, you are out of luck in the new system.

Only at 1st level. Once you reached 2nd level, you can take another subset of skills. If you pick class skills, you get even more out of it and probably don't have to worry about the skills ever again (okay, I'd try to bring the ranks to 2 to get a +5 base modifier for class skills - looks neater ).

The solution is pretty elegant, to me. You no longer "punish" people for taking cross class skills, instead they are rewarded for getting class skills.

 

[Greg K]

You'd think this would be a problem because of the first glance math... less skillpoints = less option/choices, right? But if you actually put it to practice, the new system is better in almost every way, short of a few exceptions.

Really, the ONLY character build that would really feel hurt by this change would be one that put nearly every single skillpoint into a cross class skill. And even then, they'd only feel it for the first 2 or 3 levels before the PRPG character caught up and surpassed.

And what are you doing putting most of your skills into cross class anyways? There has to be a better class out there for you... most classes have access to the skills that fit their concept already.

Well, I submitted a reply and server lag or something prevented it from going through. I'll retype it later tonight after work.