Skills: Aid Another

[Li Shenron]

I am kind of trying to figure out to which skills the Aid Another rule could be used, and eventually to which extent. What do you think of the following?

Appraise - Yes
Balance - No (but a char could be grabbed with an attack if falling?)
Bluff - No
Climb - Maybe
Concentration - No
Craft - Yes
Decipher Script - Yes
Diplomacy - Yes (as a group)
Disable Device - No
Disguise - Yes
Escape Artist - Yes (depends on circumstance)
Forgery - ?
Gather Information - Yes (as a group)
Handle Animal - Yes
Heal - Yes
Hide - No
Intimidate - Yes (as a group)
Jump - No
Knowledge - No
Listen - No
Move Silently - No
Open Lock - No
Perform - No
Profession - Yes
Ride - No
Search - Yes
Sense Motive - No
Sleight of Hand - No
Spellcraft - Depends (Yes to Decipher written spell, Identify potion, Draw diagram and Understand weird effect)
Spot - No
Survival - Yes (except Fort bonus)
Swim - Maybe
Tumble - No
Use Magic Device - No
Use Rope - Yes

Some skills can be used collectively, but I don't think you can always have 1 to roll and the others to aid. I am not sure: usually I roll 1 Spot/Listen for the whole group, and give a flat bonus depending on how many chars in the group... But with things like Diplomacy, I'd have them roll if they want to aid the one who speaks. Aid COULD be used with Spot/Listen as well if the PCs could use AID as a reaction rather than a voluntary action.

Skills that work over long times are IMHO almost always eligible, such as Craft or Handle Animal (when training, not when pushing).

I am very uncertain with skill which require precise hand manipulation, such as Disable Device or Sleight of Hand: I think an aiding char may be more hampering than helping.

Climb and Swim are tricky: maybe a PC can help another Climb just with a strength check, but a rank doesn't help, and he shouldn't be climbing himself.

Perform and Bluff don't necessarily improve if more people try at the same time. More bad singers together make the whole thing worse, just as more bad liars. But at the same time if great players or actors join, the result should improve, just as if a lie is smartely told collectively. How to achieve this?

So, what do you think?

 

[Vaxalon]

Disable Device - No
....
I am very uncertain with skill which require precise hand manipulation, such as Disable Device or Sleight of Hand: I think an aiding char may be more hampering than helping.

I think Disable Device would be appropriate if the device being disabled were large enough.

 

[just__al]

I think you should be able to Aid another for certain types of perfom.

With Perform (Comedy) a "straight man" should be able to aid the "funny guy"

Or alternately I could see giving a +2 synergy bonus to the "funny guy" if the "straight man" had 5 ranks in perform (comedy) and vice versa.

Similliarly a good backup singer should be able to aid a lead singer and maybe the band could help too.

 

[bret]

I am kind of trying to figure out to which skills the Aid Another rule could be used, and eventually to which extent.

I can see it being used for almost all of them.

Balance - No (but a char could be grabbed with an attack if falling?)

Ever seen someone learning on the balance beam? Someone could lend a helping hand, provide a little extra stability to the person attempting to balance.

Bluff - No

PC1: "You really shouldn't do that, or the snark's will eat you up!"
PC2: "Yeah, I heard about them snarks, real nasty critters they are!"

Sounds like an Aid Another. Standard part of many cons, having a college feed you questions or agree with you while you are trying to convince the mark of something.

Climb - Maybe

Giving a hand up as you attempt to climb, or pulling you up by the ropes as you attempt to climb.

Concentration - No

OK, I'm having trouble imagining a case where this could happen..

Disable Device - No

Most definately should be allowed. It is one of the main skills I used Aid Another with.

Someone could hold the wire as you cut it, help steady something, pry on the opposite side as you pry on your side, or any number of other ways where an extra hand or two could make all the difference.

Forgery - ?

Yes.

Help compare documents, trying to find the best one to copy from. Crosscheck each other's work, make sure there are no obvious errors.

Hide - No

Given time, I would allow this. You help position them and camoflauge them, they can still mess it up by moving too much or something.

\Jump - No

OK, another one where I'm having trouble coming up with an example..

Knowledge - No

You've never brainstormed with friends, trying to remember something that both of you are knowledgeable about?

Listen - No

Look at the new familiar description in the 3.5 revision. Instead of giving alertness, the familiar now does Aid Another on the sense rolls.

Move Silently - No

"Here, let me tie this down for you. It is jingling as you walk. Now try again..."

Open Lock - No

See disable device, same situation.

There are all sorts of ways an extra set of hands could help with opening locks. Even a strong shoulder (to press against the door so it doesn't move) could help in some cases.

Perform - No

Never heard of best supporting actor? How about background music?

Ride - No

If they were both on the same creature, I could see allowing it.

Sense Motive - No

Have to think about this one. In general, probably wouldn't allow it. On the other hand, I wouldn't rule it out completely.

Sleight of Hand - No

Yes. Just provide a distraction while the other person is doing the slight of hand.

If they are concealing something on a person, it would be a case of double-checking each others work as suggested for forgery.

Spellcraft - Depends (Yes to Decipher written spell, Identify potion, Draw diagram and Understand weird effect)

If the people could quickly communicate, I would allow it for the spell just being cast.

I wouldn't allow it on a counterspell unless both had readied an action against the same spellcaster and could communicate.

Spot - No

See the familiars section.

Swim - Maybe

Ever heard of a lifeguard?

Tumble - No

I admit that I'm having trouble imagining a case for this one as well.

Use Magic Device - No

I would put this as a maybe. Someone else calling out suggestions ("Have you tried crossing your fingers while twitching your nose?") to the person attempting it.

Some skills can be used collectively, but I don't think you can always have 1 to roll and the others to aid. I am not sure: usually I roll 1 Spot/Listen for the whole group, and give a flat bonus depending on how many chars in the group... But with things like Diplomacy, I'd have them roll if they want to aid the one who speaks. Aid COULD be used with Spot/Listen as well if the PCs could use AID as a reaction rather than a voluntary action.

Skills that work over long times are IMHO almost always eligible, such as Craft or Handle Animal (when training, not when pushing).

I am very uncertain with skill which require precise hand manipulation, such as Disable Device or Sleight of Hand: I think an aiding char may be more hampering than helping.

Climb and Swim are tricky: maybe a PC can help another Climb just with a strength check, but a rank doesn't help, and he shouldn't be climbing himself.

Perform and Bluff don't necessarily improve if more people try at the same time. More bad singers together make the whole thing worse, just as more bad liars. But at the same time if great players or actors join, the result should improve, just as if a lie is smartely told collectively. How to achieve this?

So, what do you think?

I would allow it in a lot more cases than you would, evidently.

 

[Zad]

Jump - No

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OK, another one where I'm having trouble coming up with an example..

Easy: Haven't you ever had someone kneeling near a wall cupping their hands while you put one foot in their hands and jumped up? Not applicable in every case but I can see it at times.

 

[bensei]

Ride - No

Another person not sitting on the ridden horse can very well aid (+2 on ride check) with a successful Handle Animal Check (calm down the horse).

 

[WattsHumphrey]

I'm pretty much of the opinion that every skill can work with 'aid another' if the circumstances are right.

The main issue for the skills you're not sure about (Climb, Jump, etc) are what the aiding character is doing.

For example, I would not allow Character 1 to aid Character 2 if they both had to climb. If Character 1 was climbing and Character 2 was hoisting them up or giving them a hand from the ground (or the summit) then they could aid.

Essentially, if the circumstances allow 1 person to either do nothing or help, then helping can be aiding.

 

[Li Shenron]

Guys, thanks for your attention! But... I think we are confounding the Aid Another use of a skill with generally helping someone use a skill with external support

What I mean is: if you cup your hands to help a friend reach a higher height with a jump, are you jumping yourself? Then why should you make a Jump check to give him a bonus? It could be a Strength check, or maybe even a Balance check not to make him fall, but you are not jumping.
Pulling up the rope while the friend is climbing is a good help, but I think that it should not be a Climb check, because you are not climbing yourself! It should be just a Strength check, although I could see that a high rank in Climb could provide a synergy bonus on the Str check, since knowing well how to climb a rope can provide you some knowledge in how to help as well.

The example of Sleight of Hand should be handled with a Bluff check to distract, while the other uses the skill to pickpocket. Note that the two things are so different that it makes sense that one uses Cha and the other Dex.

The problem I have with Bluff and Perform (and eventually it could also happen with Diplomacy and Intimidate, although I think it it slightly less likely, for some reasons...) it's that Aid Another is simply +2 or nothing. Instead, as an example, I don't think that a PC with -4 mod in Charisma who rolls a 1 in an attempt to Aid Another on a Perform check makes the performance the same On the other hand, there MUST be a possiblility for someone with high ranks in Perform to improve someone else's performance as a group. It seems to me that the Aid Another rule doesn't cover both...

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It is possibly my personal view of Knowledge, but I think they should not be treated as any other skill; I treat KN as something the character has achieved beforehand, and a KN check is not an attempt to "remember" but just a % chance that he knows something already. Most of the people on this board disagree with me, and I am quite fine with it: but in my opinion, it shouldn't be allowed to either Take 10 or Take 20, simply because you can't retry a KN check*. But let's keep this a separate discussion

Only if you use KN checks to search information for example in a library you should be allowed to Aid Another.

*I know that the books say Take 10 has nothing to do with retries, BUT you take 10 when you are in comfort, which means that if you were NOT in comfort, you had to roll. You can't retry a KN check by the rules: so if the check was to "remember", and you tried to remember something in the middle of a battle, and failed, then you can't retry even once the battle is over and you are by your cottage fireplace. Hadn't you tried to remember before, now you would have taken 10 and you would have known the thing

 

[silburnl]

Guys, thanks for your attention! But... I think we are confounding the Aid Another use of a skill with generally helping someone use a skill with external support ...

Is this a problem though? The Hero Wars/HeroQuest approach is that all ability checks can be augmented by any other ability provided that the player(s) can concoct a plausible way to bring that ability to bear upon the problem. The default is to divide the augmenting ability by 10 and add it to the primary ability but you can roll to try and get a better augment (with a risk of getting nothing or a penalty for bad rolls).

The problem I have with Bluff and Perform (and eventually it could also happen with Diplomacy and Intimidate, although I think it it slightly less likely, for some reasons...) it's that Aid Another is simply +2 or nothing. Instead, as an example, I don't think that a PC with -4 mod in Charisma who rolls a 1 in an attempt to Aid Another on a Perform check makes the performance the same On the other hand, there MUST be a possiblility for someone with high ranks in Perform to improve someone else's performance as a group. It seems to me that the Aid Another rule doesn't cover both...

You could houserule something along the lines of the HW/HQ mechanic I mentioned earlier. Give a variable bonus depending upn the DN that the aiding player chooses and let them Take 10 for a sure thing if they've got the stats and/or skill ranks. You should probably remove standard synergy bonuses from your game and fold them into this mechanic as Take 10 augments however.

Regards
Luke
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# include witty_sig.h

 

[Dakkareth]

Spot and Listen Checks IMO shouldn't elegible - the familiars can help, because they share a telepathic bond with their master, but other characters can only make their own checks.