Skills: Aid Another

[bret]

Spot and Listen Checks IMO shouldn't elegible - the familiars can help, because they share a telepathic bond with their master, but other characters can only make their own checks.

I realize this is just your opinion rather than the rules, but why don't you think it should be allowed? Multiple people on watch should be better than a single person, using Aid Another prevents you from having to roll as many dice and allows for a higher top end.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What I mean is: if you cup your hands to help a friend reach a higher height with a jump, are you jumping yourself? Then why should you make a Jump check to give him a bonus? It could be a Strength check, or maybe even a Balance check not to make him fall, but you are not jumping.

You aren't jumping... but your skill in jumping comes into play.

Let's take a real-world example - comes under Tumble, I guess, but it's just an example. You're practising a backward somersault.

You have two choices for an assistant. Someone with a high Strength, who can lift you nice and high... or someone with a fairly average Strength, who knows a lot about gymnastics.

Personally, I'd pick the second guy to help me... lots of Strength applied at the wrong time, or in the wrong way, isn't going to help as much as less Strength applied just right.

If you're cupping your hands to help someone jump over a wall, it helps if you are a skilled jumper yourself, so you get the timing and direction of your boost right.

-Hyp.

 

[WattsHumphrey]

using Aid Another prevents you from having to roll as many dice and allows for a higher top end.

I guess it does let you roll less dice if you have the person with the higher skill ranks take 10... but as the person Aiding with Aid Another must roll their check, that doesn't allow a higher top end. (the passage is split across pages 65 and 66 in the 3.5 PH)

And I can see your issue with things like Jump not working with Aid Another conceptually... but that's what you get with an abstract system. I'd prolly House Rule it too, if it ever came up.

 

[bret]

I guess it does let you roll less dice if you have the person with the higher skill ranks take 10... but as the person Aiding with Aid Another must roll their check, that doesn't allow a higher top end. (the passage is split across pages 65 and 66 in the 3.5 PH)

Two human grunt guards standing at a doorway, guarding it. They both have Wis 10, Alertness feat, and 2 ranks (cost 4 skill points) in spot.

If they each take 10, they only get totals of 14. If one uses a Take 10 to aid the other, we now have a total of 16.

If they have to roll, there is a 25% chance of not succeeding. The other 75% of the time, the other person can get a result of between 7 (1 + 4 + 2) and 26 (20 + 4 + 2). That is what I meant by a higher top end, they can get a 26, without the Aid they could only achieve a 24 result.

If you allow multiple people to help each other on guard duty, you can get higher bonuses. People are watching every possible approach, which should make it much more difficult to sneak up on the area.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

If they have to roll, there is a 25% chance of not succeeding. The other 75% of the time, the other person can get a result of between 7 (1 + 4 + 2) and 26 (20 + 4 + 2). That is what I meant by a higher top end, they can get a 26, without the Aid they could only achieve a 24 result.

That makes no sense. How can two ordinary guards be able to see something together that neither can see individually. The representation of more people, more likely to see something is already in place by the fact that they get lots of checks. If you don't want it to be impossible for that many guards to see a 26-Hiding person, then let a natural 20 be a 30 (or a 20 + 1d20, whatever you like).

I would make the list now as follows:

Appraise - Yes
Balance - No if both having to balance (which should penalise if they try and grab each other if anything), Yes if one is steady, the other balancing
Bluff - Yes, the more people telling you that the halfling is a lammasu, the more likely you are to believe. Yes for feint uses too (distraction).
Climb - Again if both climbing, No (although tying people together allows for less harsh outcomes of failed results). Yes if one person is helping the other up/down.
Concentration - No, can't see any situation bar monks 'visualising' en masse
Craft - Yes
Decipher Script - Yes
Diplomacy - Yes, be wary of those who may roll a natural one
Disable Device - Yes, one person can describe and the other offer advice, it isn't just about actually performing the task
Disguise - Yes
Escape Artist - Yes
Forgery - Yes
Gather Information - Yes
Handle Animal - Yes
Heal - Yes
Hide - Yes, as long as one person is hiding, not both advising each other (which is silly)
Intimidate - Yes
Jump - I would go with Yes based on people's posts. It makes sense you know how to help someone launch if you can do it yourself.
Knowledge - Yes, but you would be better off individually (two checks) for most tasks.
Listen - No, the guards above example
Move Silently - Yes, as long as one person is still and silently advising
Open Lock - Yes, again one person advising based on description
Perform - Yes, many ways this could work, and think of a gang of bards all fascinating someone!
Profession - Yes
Ride - Yes if both riding, or one accompanying (imagine learning to ride)
Search - Yes
Sense Motive - Yes, if you can somehow compare opinions of the bluffer, and definitely against a feint.
Sleight of Hand - Yes, using bluff though I would say
Spellcraft - Yes to Decipher written spell, Identify potion, Draw diagram and Understand weird effect, No to sudden spell identification, no time even if telepathic to think it through together
Spot - No, above example
Survival - Yes
Swim - Yes
Tumble - No, even advising here would seem illogical
Use Magic Device - No
Use Rope - Yes

 

[Trainz]

Easy: Haven't you ever had someone kneeling near a wall cupping their hands while you put one foot in their hands and jumped up? Not applicable in every case but I can see it at times.

As noted later, that is not aiding another...

I would rule this one with the DM's best friend rule i.e. favorable conditions that give a +2.

Basically, it gives you the same bonus, but the condition is different. Plus the helping character doesn't have to roll v.s. DC 10.

 

[bret]

Why is it so logical for people being able to search and aid each other, but not spot or listen? How is it that you can Aid for Disable Device by describing, yet can't for Use Magic Device?

Sorry, but this is wandering firmly into house rules. The rules in the book seems pretty clear, if the person doing the aiding can get a DC10 result, the other person gets a +2 bonus.

I might ask the PC for an explanation of how they were helping the other person but even here I would be very generous.