D&D 5E Skills and Ability Checks -- Perspective on Consistency vs DM Empowerment

[Oofta]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You went on about all the types of lists, I pointed out you left out skills and that the lists did not help with balance in actual play. You commented on levrl gating balance ehstever.

Whatever points you msy be trying to make in your argument with others it seems to be off- kilter here to the points I am making.

Did you mean those quotes and asking me about chords to imply that I said that? Are you asking if I agree with those ?

At this point it seems more like jabbing than discussing or constructing a argument yo point.

If it's any consolation I kind of lost what @Tony Vargas was saying a while back. Saying that D&D isn't a board game for example isn't an insult against board games. I enjoy many types of games including board games, card games, video games, table top RPG games. But they are different.

I simply prefer that my TTRPG does not try to be "perfectly balanced" by trying to take all the judgement calls out of the hands of the DM. It never seems to work, and leads to other problems. It's a trade off.

On the other hand, I'm not very fond of head games and I'm too old for drinking games.

 

[5ekyu]

Wrong but whatever. Balance when comparing to another list of abilities which is gated by levels... kind of relates

Huh? If two 3rd level evocation spells on the same list do not have a balance in play without adding in the GM choices of adversaries, if they can in an actual game with zero rule change vary widely in their power - then what value for balance do you use for this "comparing to another" list of abilities which are not as similar as these?

Again, balance in play is created by the GM choices that lead to needs and decisions of the players on how to address.

Some need lists more than others, I suppose.

 

[5ekyu]

If it's any consolation I kind of lost what @Tony Vargas was saying a while back. Saying that D&D isn't a board game for example isn't an insult against board games. I enjoy many types of games including board games, card games, video games, table top RPG games. But they are different.

I simply prefer that my TTRPG does not try to be "perfectly balanced" by trying to take all the judgement calls out of the hands of the DM. It never seems to work, and leads to other problems. It's a trade off.

On the other hand, I'm not very fond of head games and I'm too old for drinking games.

To be fair, the vibes I often get are not compared to board games but more mmo or crpg where " builds" can be more dps compared meaningfully due to the enemies being programmed and known - a far cry fifferent from a ttrpg actual play. Those games are much more driven by choice from list synergies.

Disclaimer: No board games or crpg or mmo were intentionally denigrated in this reply.

 

[Tony Vargas]

mmo or crpg where " builds" … are much more driven by choice from list synergies.

Well, that follows since they're imitators of D&D, just in another medium, and D&D is about as list-based as an RPG can easily get. The only instances where D&D saves itself from "choice from list synergies" are those where it eliminates choice by randomly distributing from a table,* instead.

Saying that D&D isn't a board game for example isn't an insult against board games.

It's elitist, and implies that whatever quality of D&D it's meant to deflect criticism or analysis of can't be improved without making it into a boardgame.

I mean, your intent is to say that if D&D were more like a boardgame, it'd be a worse RPG, right?

I simply prefer that my TTRPG does not try to be "perfectly balanced" by trying to take all the judgement calls out of the hands of the DM.

"Perfect" balance is, of course, like all sorts of perfection, practically impossible. Which is never a reason not to try for better balance, just a reason to pause in that pursuit and publish now & then.












* don't knock it: random item generation kept magic-user at least a little different from eachother back in the day, since they'd find differnet spells, same with high-level fighters defined by the magic arms & armor they'd randomly found.

 

[Oofta]

It's elitist, and implies that whatever quality of D&D it's meant to deflect criticism or analysis of can't be improved without making it into a boardgame.

I mean, your intent is to say that if D&D were more like a boardgame, it'd be a worse RPG, right?

"Perfect" balance is, of course, like all sorts of perfection, practically impossible. Which is never a reason not to try for better balance, just a reason to pause in that pursuit and publish now & then.

I don't see it as "elitist". At a certain level board games and TTRPGs are incompatible. It's like saying that a apple pie tastes different than a hamburger. I like both.

As far as the rest, balance is in the eye of the beholder. I find 5E reasonably well balanced if you follow the general guidelines for the number of encounters. YMMV.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't see it as "elitist". At a certain level board games and TTRPGs are incompatible. It's like saying that a apple pie tastes different than a hamburger. I like both.

Do you participate in boardgaming discussion groups and shield your favorite boardgame from criticism by asserting "well, it's not an RPG!"

As far as the rest, balance is in the eye of the beholder.

Nah, the occasional cone of anti-magic doesn't cut it.

I find 5E reasonably well balanced if you follow the general guidelines for the number of encounters. YMMV.

Balance is prettymuch mathematical - especially in that example, which, I don't entirely disagree with.
5e only really seeks balance along a few key indicators, but DPR is one of 'em, and straightforward combat pillar balance, over 6-8 medium/hard combat encounters, with 2-3 short rets, generally shakes out reasonably well.

 

[Garthanos]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You went on about all the types of lists, I pointed out you left out skills and that the lists did not help with balance in actual play. You commented on levrl gating balance ehstever.

Level gating it is a tool to make things comparable when they are simultaneously acquired / or applied. So a level gated ability like a spell or a skill power or utility power (or even general character abilities) can be compared because they are operating when something else is level gated and are basically on a list of things available and interacting at this level. If all class abilities where made comparable at a given level then multi-classing wouldn't be a trap option and wouldn't need a big warning sticker on it. Gee a game of D&D without warning stickers. (comparable does not mean the same necessarily see roles)

Did you mean those quotes and asking me about chords to imply that I said that? Are you asking if I agree with those ?

It meant you were apparently ignoring the things I was saying WERE important to balance in favor of telling me I was saying lists were intrinsically so. I said lists were D&D and we know that isnt intrinsically balanced why would you assume I meant that. And skills arent balanced against one another because they are a bloody YOLO improvise something and WAVE your hands in the air like you don't care.

When you have one thing gated by level for them to comparable with other things you might need them gated by level (AND by comparable I do not mean they accomplish exactly the same things that is why there are battlefield roles, corporate business team roles , sport team roles, and tadah military roles like the US fireteam Arneson reportedly patterned the party after in 70s.)

I dont know why communication is breaking down but I understood where you were coming from with the make whatever abilities the individual has the ones important to the story I find that can become stilted and restrictive if the characters are not versatile and competent (and if the featured trait is detail free also simplistic and much harder to feature)

 

[Garthanos]

Do you participate in boardgaming discussion groups and shield your favorite boardgame from criticism by asserting "well, it's not an RPG!"

I am picturing it at this very moment LOL.

As far as the rest, balance is in the eye of the beholder.

Balance is prettymuch mathematical - especially in that example, which, I don't entirely disagree with.
5e only really seeks balance along a few key indicators, but DPR is one of 'em, and straightforward combat pillar balance, over 6-8 medium/hard combat encounters, with 2-3 short rets, generally shakes out reasonably well.

I would say combat balance has been figured out but are we really discussing combat so much here?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am picturing it at this very moment LOL.

"I don't care if the Dispatcher is better than the Operations Expert! Pandemic is NOT AN RPG!"
"Besides, the 2nd edition fixed it."
"Meh, that version's too easy..."
"Yeah? Try playing it was RPGers some time. Hint: it doesn't matter 'what would your character would do?' Argh!"

I would say combat balance has been figured out but are we really discussing combat so much here?

Guess not, topic drift.

 

[jasper]

I... rest, balance is in the eye of the beholder. I ...

1. Risin' up, back from the dead
Took my time, took my chances
Went the distance
Now I'm back on my feet
Just a pc and his will to survive

So many times, it happens too fast
You trade your passion for gp
Don't lose your grip
On the dreams of the past
You must fight just to keep yourself alive

It's the eye of the beholder
It's the thrill of the fight
Risin' up to the challenge
Of our rival
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching all with the
Eye of the beholder

Face to face, out in the heat
Hangin' back, stayin' in cover
They stack the odds
Still we take to the dungeon
For the kill with the skill to survive

It's the eye of the beholder
It's the thrill of the fight
Risin' up to the challenge
Of our rival
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching us all with the
Eye of the beholder

Risin' up straight to the top
Had the guts, got the gp
Went the distance
Now I'm not gonna stop
Just a pc and his will to survive

It's the eye of the beholder
It's the thrill of the fight
Risin' up to the challenge
Of our rival
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night
And he's watching us all with the
Eye of the beholder

The eye of the beholder
The eye of the beholder
The eye of the beholder
The eye of the beholder