D&D 5E Skills and Ability Checks -- Perspective on Consistency vs DM Empowerment

[Sadras]

I was that stuck-up PC. Launching a fireball into a window from which arrows are being fired is not always the appropriate response. The initial goal of stopping myself from getting shot was rather overshadowed by all the helpless people we failed to rescue by burning them to a crisp.

Innocents, particularly in D&D, do have the propensity to be in the wrong place, wrong time. But I wouldn't worry about those few, they made you the hero you are today. Besides I always marvel at the amount of innocents that need rescuing. There are always more.

 

[Garthanos]

The example (not that I'm picking on it, just it's a clear example) is throwing a net, anchoring it with arrows and acting as a mundane version of a feather fall for the entire party. To me that just defies all sorts of logic. Things like: how do you throw the net while falling? How does the net spread out perfectly to be pinned to walls? How can you fire 4 arrows simultaneously?

Its actually ok to pick on it... as it was a hypothetical extreme I have actually used to really demonstrate how much more powerful they actually made the wizard in 5e., In 4e he standardly only saves one person with the feather fall spell
Oh and they build nets for throwing with weights on the end gets us closer. It spreads out naturallly. The guy who fires 10 or so arrows in real life in about a round of time might get off 3 in less than 2 seconds in fact I suspect running around with 10 loaded would be impractical. (He tends to not show that part of the process I suspect its tricky) Though he did show putting three in his bow hand that I saw and can fire them while doing various flips and rolls like he was in combat dodging. They are short draw shots not all the way back to cheek and wouldn't work for more than 50 yards I think maybe less. The bow is a light one (but that is like native american bows who had the legend of about Hiawatha firing 12 shots before the first one hit). So actually the Archers Volley at level 11 is indeed turning up the volume to 11. I disagree that the game standardly is but little spikes do indeed. Based on that ability is why I might allow the stunt for the paragon class Ranger (who I would call a Robin Hood archetype by that level.

Splitting the arrow is not realistic because of physics of arrow flight ironically and may be less possible than the Hiawatha attack.

 

[Garthanos]

Also not true. You can exceed your normal jump distance with an athletics check, the base is the distance you can automatically make every time without any special training.

No there is no rule at all for how much more 5 inches more? that will keep your game truly and properly mundane. Because you need a spell to do interesting extremes. With no rule or even hint its utterly more mundane and limited than real life.

Someone aware of what realistic is might say if you make moderate check you can add your proficiency to your jump distance. Or just let you always do that since "it will make next to no difference at all."

OK it might annoy Garthanos a smidgen less if it atleast did that.

 

[Garthanos]

Oh right there are spells the only one the DM keeps mundane by rulings like the above is the non caster an Eldritch knight waving his hands and mumbling cryptic phrases with his dump stat intelligence impairing him in one way or another can make an incredible leap.

 

[Garthanos]

While wearing full plate, carrying multiple weapons and a full backpack running across uneven ground. Totally comparable.

Magical full plate and I have seen a guy running in full plate he matches the paramedics and modern warriors its not horrible even when utterly realistic. In fact I would say the penalties plate gave to movement in 4e are unrealistic.

 

[Garthanos]

The difference is that I don't need a hard coded rule to make that happen in a campaign I want to run like that.

I want a limit on my dialed up mundane to keep it in line with what is accomplished by magic I do not want to do it badly by improvising based on thin air.

That also doesn't mean non-magical abilities are going to match magical abilities for two reasons: 1) it's a limited vs limited resource;

Nope if you make them Martial unlimited you have JUST right there decided to sacrifice realism in one way instead of another other and in fact restrict all other boundaries in favor of utterly boring performance they that barely seems to exceed anything people do in the real world.

and 2) mundane might push the boundaries of physics but magic defies them by definition.

How it accomplishes its things break physics by definition what it accomplishes does not in any way have to exceed mundane that is a design decision generally justified by making mundane mean unrealistically unlimited in several ways.

It's possible to turn such non-magical actions into limited resources to match the first point

Yup so far so good.

but the second becomes harder and harder to maintain a reasonable suspension of disbelief the more physics are pushed so the limits on magic in 5e are considerations to the limits on non-magic.

Agreed I think but because of game balance reasons not because mundane being more potent than magic is silly. Because I do not really want it to be. I do not want to invalidate a class choice by making any particular mechanism towards non-combat successes to overshadow the others.

 

[Garthanos]

Magic in D&D is often overly reliable if its supposed to be so difficult or so non-natural ie not physics but breaking physics and making it do flips its not doing a very good job at portraying that ...having significant backfire on a failure or backlash effects even on a success is the kind of limit that would make it match its flavor text far better. For being dialed up to 11 even magic feels just LESS, a trivial use of a simple to use tool that just has n spell levels of fuel intensity and not a big deal. Even counter spelll doesnt cause a backlash.. that us un fun to be honest.

 

[Garthanos]

That requires the need or desire to balance skills vs spells, and that's a different topic.

To you it was a different topic but you know to me that is possibly the most significant part of why I want more detailed rules in this arena. (there are other reasons I know) And its the thing I am not confident about doing on the fly to me it takes deep investigation of just about every part of the existing system so as to avoid stepping on the toes of the monk even. They increased the potency and versatility of magic both in 5e compared to 4e in a number of ways even just translating across 4e skill powers would still likely leave one behind the curve of what can now be accomplished via spells.

 

[Garthanos]

The thing here is I believe it's possible to eliminate the spell lists. It's not like there aren't other ways to represent magic in a role-playing game.

Yeah that was my point... its a very list driven game (not that roleplaying has to be). They complained about lacks of detail for their crafting and similar things to high heaven when 4e came out because it meant they couldn't do it. Now that is obviously not true but the interesting mechanics for crafting is the skill challenges which occurs when the situation isn't the everyday it is when danger is lurking and you are using that other world forge and trying to overcome its defenses perhaps even attempting to keep it quiet to avoid the god vulcan and so on. Not determining how much money you make after two weeks of making horseshoes.

The DM can improvise that part was the answer.... a wonderful answer for something boring and everyday that cannot possibly compete with this stuff over here.

 

[Charlaquin]

You can exceed your normal jump distance with an athletics check, the base is the distance you can automatically make every time without any special training.

That’s debatable, but last time I tried to do so I got myself on like three people’s block lists.