D&D 5E Skills and Ability Checks -- Perspective on Consistency vs DM Empowerment

[5ekyu]

I disagree less detail really does promote less impact and linear advancement of skills vs quadratic advancement of other arenas of ability. Can I gather ten times the herbs or keep them fresh ten times as long can I duplicate higher level spells with really rare ones that I couldn't before. Detail really does make a difference. D&D is a game of lists. Lists of Spells or Powers or Polearms even LOL

Actually I think we have very different conclusions on the impact of detail and impact. I have played many games with far more details and lists than 5e and sorry but my experience is that does not promote more balance, more scaling or whatever your experiences have shown you.

Quite the opposite in fact.

The more detail, the more lists set down, the more that detail is factored into "balance" the more the "assumed gameplay" gets baked in and the more it becomes important to not deviate from that.

I have not had the problems you seem to either fear or have had with 5e and characters being unable to contribute. Each of thec5e games and campaigns I ran were distinct and so need for prefabbed lists trying to push each into one square peg - not desirable change for me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But in a TTRPG what you're saying (I think) is always going to be the case in a system like D&D.

In the sense that most editions of D&D punt to the DM a lot, sure, tautologically so.

In the broader case that, regardless of how neat & complete a system may seem, the GM is inevitably free to override or change it, sure, it's always present, just varying in degree. The less prevalent, the less of an impetus there may be for players to tolerate or leverage the GM's judgement, too.

Unless the game is run like a board game, there's always going to be bias of one sort or another.

"Like a board game" in this case would just mean "without function of DM being necessary" - a complex enough boardgame might well benefit from a 'judge' with similar function. I point that out just because there's a strain of elitism in our hobby that uncritically paints boardgames (and CRPGS, MMORPGS, etc) as essentially inferior to TTRPGs in some sense.

However, even in that case you can have house rules (it's an older term than TTRPGs), table rules, and consensus judgements changing over overriding rules. People are people - whether a system is functional enough to require such intervention infrequently, or builds such intervention into its basic functions.

 

[jasper]

Perspective B no A. For I love the inconsistency. If I am feeling bad on Friday, I can rule one way. If I am hungover on Sunday, I can do just the opposite. If Charlaquin been on their cell phone for most of session no nice rulings for you. Is Tony Vargas a rules guru, then I will try to be consistent. Since I don’t like Garthanos I just be inconsistent to tick him off. Beside he didn’t let me copy his Geometry homework on Tuesday.

Ok enough smack talk. Using perspective A, I can adjust the difficultly on the fly without breaking the rules. Group has 3 staff of the magi, so DC’s are going down. IF Bob is a new dm, I feel happy to tell to make it and then adjust it.

This is NOT 3E where there was one rule for everything

 

[Garthanos]

Actually I think we have very different conclusions on the impact of detail and impact. I have played many games with far more details and lists than 5e and sorry but my experience is that does not promote more balance,

It takes more than a list to make balance one element is common resources between characters. (common resources allow comparison)
The lists/detailed abilities provide a common ground for me and my players so when I feel like adjusting off the rails. I have a starting point they do not in and of themselves create balance (only if the designers were actually careful in constructing these premade elements are they balanced sloppy designers mean premade mess).

more scaling or whatever your experiences have shown you.

No BA killed scaling of ability its unrelated to lists.
Level gating of abilities can contribute to balance as it allows analysis in a specific context.

D&D now has Lists of Gods, Lists of spells, even Lists of Weapons and Armors in D&D has always baked in a game world it was that way from the beginning

The things we have details about become features of game play more elaborate detailed rules don poorly or which someone finds not evocative sure.. they might not.

 

[Garthanos]

Beside he didn’t let me copy his Geometry homework on Tuesday.

Did to you liar the answers were just wrong because I copied them from you.

 

[5ekyu]

It takes more than a list to make balance one element is common resources between characters. (common resources allow comparison)
The lists/detailed abilities provide a common ground for me and my players so when I feel like adjusting off the rails. I have a starting point they do not in and of themselves create balance (only if the designers were actually careful in constructing these premade elements are they balanced sloppy designers mean premade mess).


No BA killed scaling of ability its unrelated to lists.
Level gating of abilities can contribute to balance as it allows analysis in a specific context.

D&D now has Lists of Gods, Lists of spells, even Lists of Weapons and Armors in D&D has always baked in a game world it was that way from the beginning

The things we have details about become features of game play more elaborate detailed rules don poorly or which someone finds not evocative sure.. they might not.

It has lists of skills too.

None of those do whit for balance in an actual game. Fireball and Lightning Bolt are both 3rd level and may "compare" as vastly different power in a game with different frequencies of different creatures.

If you find a list necessary for balance, thats fantastic.

 

[Garthanos]

None of those do whit for balance in an actual game.

something something about "common resources between characters" yup is that hitting a chord?
Something something about " were actually careful in constructing these premade elements are they balanced"
Lists of skills with next to no foundations about what they might accomplish yep contributes nothing to balance.

You got me there 5e skills do not help the game be more balanced.

 

[Garthanos]

If you find a list necessary for balance, thats fantastic.

Wrong but whatever. Balance when comparing to another list of abilities which is gated by levels... kind of relates

 

[Tony Vargas]

It has lists of skills too.

And they don't exactly neatly balance, either.

If you find a list necessary for balance, thats fantastic.

Lists aren't necessary for balance. Balance is necessary for lists, if the inclusion of each element in that list is to be meaningful.

Obviously, the longer the lists, the more problematic maintaining that balance becomes. At best, the list becomes choked with meaningless chaff, at worst it's negated by a few - or one - obvious-best choice.

D&D has traditionally had some very long lists.

 

[5ekyu]

something something about "common resources between characters" yup is that hitting a chord?
Something something about " were actually careful in constructing these premade elements are they balanced"
Lists of skills with next to no foundations about what they might accomplish yep contributes nothing to balance.

You got me there 5e skills do not help the game be more balanced.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You went on about all the types of lists, I pointed out you left out skills and that the lists did not help with balance in actual play. You commented on levrl gating balance ehstever.

Whatever points you msy be trying to make in your argument with others it seems to be off- kilter here to the points I am making.

Did you mean those quotes and asking me about chords to imply that I said that? Are you asking if I agree with those ?

At this point it seems more like jabbing than discussing or constructing a argument yo point.