D&D 5E Skills from an old Legends & Lore article by Mike Mearls?

Quickleaf

Legend
Back in 2011 when Monte Cook was still involved with D&D Next, Mike Mearls posted a very interesting rules concept for skill that involved proficiency ranks and very little dice rolling. I'm sure there are games which use a similar skill system. I'm curious to hear from folks what the feedback, whether online or in playtesting, was for this concept. Was it ever in the playtest?

While Mike Mearls does a good job of outlining the many benefits of such a skill system, he neglects to mention the major drawback: If you don't have the necessary proficiency rank you can't attempt a skill. It's meant to be a feature, but could easily be a drawback with certain skills that are sort of "universal adventurer skills."

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110816

Mike Mearls said:
In this world, a check DC is no longer a number. Instead, like several rules-light gaming engines, it uses a series of descriptors that illustrate the minimum skill level needed to attempt a task. This list gives the ranks from lowest to highest:

Novice
Journeyman
Expert
Master
Grandmaster
Impossible
When the DM asks for a check, you compare the DC to your rating in the appropriate skill. Impossible is essentially a placeholder, a rank that applies to things that the DM or the rules deems are doomed to failure. For example, a character who leaps off a cliff and flaps his arms in order to fly is attempting (and failing) an impossible task.

If your skill rank is greater than the task’s DC rank, you automatically succeed. You are so skilled that you can complete the task without any special effort. Think of a tightrope walker at the circus. She has enough training and experience that performing her act is an automatic success. It would take some outside factor, like a sudden injury, an equipment failure, and so on, to cause her to fall. On the other hand, as a sedentary game designer I wouldn’t even imagine trying to walk across a tightrope myself. I’d fall after a step or two.

If your skill rank equals the task’s DC rank, you need to make a check with a result of 15 or higher to succeed. You’re skilled enough that you might succeed. In this world, skill checks use an ability score modifier (chosen to fit the task by the DM; a skill uses whatever ability is the best match for the actual action) with perhaps a small modifier based on feats or a skill bonus.

Going back to our tightrope walker, perhaps an earthquake strikes in the middle of her act. As the rope sways, the DC shifts one category up. Now she has to make a check, perhaps with her 18 Dexterity for a +4 bonus as well as a +4 bonus from a feat or other benefit she took. That gives her a 65% chance to remain on the rope.

If your skill rank is below the task’s DC rank, you automatically fail. Your training and experience are not enough to complete the task. Going back to the tightrope walker, let’s say that as the earth shakes she also steps on a length of the rope that her rival covered in grease. The difficulty shifts one more category up, causing her to fall to the net below.

The DC is based on two things. First, the DM determines a task’s basic difficulty. Then, for each element in play that makes it more difficult, he shifts the difficulty down one rank to the harder level. For elements that make it easier, he shifts it up. Typically, the DM informs you of the DC before you make the attempt. A hidden threat might mean that you don’t know the true DC until you make your attempt, but that’s the exception rather than the rule.

Going back to our hapless tightrope walker, perhaps she is carrying a pole to help balance her. The pole gives her an advantage that shifts the DC down one category. When the earthquake hits, she still keeps her balance. When she steps on the greased section of rope, she must then make a check.

Benefits of this Approach

I will readily admit that is a radically different approach to skills in D&D, one that looks nothing like anything in any version of the game. I imagine that 90% of you are ready to lambaste it. However, it’s worth pointing out some of its benefits:

It dramatically simplifies the math and removes the escalating bonus race.

It speeds up play by eliminating die rolls in some cases.

It makes DCs the same across all levels. An expert task is always expert level. We don’t need to shift difficulties assuming that your bonus continually increases because some characters can remain untrained. The system works by removing the link between difficulty class and level. Instead, we just use a simple, descriptive system as applied to reality.

It allows trained experts to repeatedly achieve impressive results through practice and training. Just as in real life, a highly trained character can do amazing feats without any real risk of failure (barring any complications or unexpected hazards).

It more closely models the real world (in my opinion, at least) by shaping how we approach tasks. We have an innate sense of things we can do without thought, things that we know to not try, and things that can be challenging. I know that I can walk a mile in 20 minutes without any real effort. I can jog a mile in 15 minutes with some (OK, a lot of) exertion. My sedentary butt would collapse long before I hit a mile if I ran at a 10-minute pace. I don’t need to try these tasks to determine this. I have 36 years of experience to establish what I can do.

It makes skill training even more valuable because it grants automatic success in easier situations rather than a better chance of success. A sure thing is more valuable than improved odds (a bird in the hand versus two in the bush). A rogue highly trained in Acrobatics or Balance simply scurries across a tightrope while the fighter looks for another route. This approach actually encourages players to use their skills more often in dangerous situations by removing random, chance-driven failure as the norm.

It encourages smart play and engagement. A player with a clever idea can shift the DC one level and turn a check into an automatic success, or an impossible challenge into one with a chance of success. I personally like this because it gives the DM a lot of leeway to use the system to shape his or her game.

It bakes “impossible” directly into the game. No amount of Diplomacy can sway the raging, bloodthirsty barbarian. It’s off the chart. This may sound like a minor thing, but I think it’s important to set the expectation that the DM can simply invoke common sense or logic to rule that a check will fail regardless of the die roll. Relying on the rules to set what are meant to be impossible DCs is simply asking for trouble.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I've gotten the impression that it survived in a revised form via Numenera (impression I've gotten from discussion and reviews, not from actually reading it myself).


The concept holds some appeal to me, but while I like the mechanics to keep excess dice rolls in check, I still like some fair amount of dice rolling. And generally, I find that players want to roll dice when performing actions.
 
Last edited:

I like using a relatively static DC, though. In our S&W hack, I try to only call for checks for tasks that are genuinely challenging, and then I usually make the PC roll against their own Save. Only very rarely have I felt the need to increase the DC (low-level characters in S&W usually have Saves ranging from 12-15).

I'd like to simplify the ranks to something like Novice-Trained-Master, with the majority of standard adventuring tasks being novice-level, and only the significantly harder or specialized tasks requiring to be trained. Masters could achieve truly extraordinary things, like climbing sheer surfaces.

You always roll against the same DC, but you never need to roll for a task of a lower rank, and tasks of higher rank are impossible to you.


I like it. It's not that far removed from what I'm already doing.
 

I like using a relatively static DC, though. In our S&W hack, I try to only call for checks for tasks that are genuinely challenging, and then I usually make the PC roll against their own Save. Only very rarely have I felt the need to increase the DC (low-level characters in S&W usually have Saves ranging from 12-15).

I'd like to simplify the ranks to something like Novice-Trained-Master, with the majority of standard adventuring tasks being novice-level, and only the significantly harder or specialized tasks requiring to be trained. Masters could achieve truly extraordinary things, like climbing sheer surfaces.

You always roll against the same DC, but you never need to roll for a task of a lower rank, and tasks of higher rank are impossible to you.


I like it. It's not that far removed from what I'm already doing.

One of the things I like about it is that it limits "pile on" skill checks. What I'm wondering is how to handle extremely common skill checks like Perception. Players want to roll those Perception checks, and like clockwork anytime I ask one player to roll a Perception check, I'll get most of the rest of the group rolling (despite reminders about group skill checks, perception checks taking time, and needing to be in the same damn area!).

But let's say there's a Journeyman level Perception challenge... First of all, how does a DM even determine that? Second of all, what does the DM say to players who ask, "wait, why can't I make a Perception check?"

Or instead of Perception insert Athletics or Stealth.

I really want to like this system, and am considering implementing something like it in my games, but this is a sticking point that I'd like to find a workaround for.
 

I like this static way since Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1e, where possession of a skill meant that a character can do things. If he knows Apothecary, he'll be able to find and identify valerian without rolling as long as it exists here. WFRP added stat rolls to the show for tasks with possible failure, where only characters with the skill were allowed to roll.

Mixing this with the ranking system, one could do something like "Journeyman is auto-success for DC 15". Problems come with rolling a d20. You'd quickly arrvie at cumbersome scenarios like "Journeyman is autosuccess for DC15, +5 with minimum roll 10".

I guess it'd be better replacing the d20 with a smaller die for this. Drawing numbers out of my hat, it would be something like:

Novice: 8+d6
Journeyman: 12+d8

and so on. The higher your level, the better you are and the more ambitious you projects could be. So a Master-level character ould try an Grandmaster project, which would still be impossible to do for the Journeyman.
 

I like this system, and could incorporate it into a house rule in 3e or 4e.

Allow a lot of take 10, and assign a flat DC a name. So journeyman might be DC 15, and expert DC 20, or whatever you think makes sense.

I notice that in 4e, something like this already exists for a lot of skills, for instance, a DC 30 is a hard knowledge question. Perhaps a character who can routinely hit a DC 30 is considered an "expert".

A typical unopposed adventure technique (eg lighting a fire, perhaps Nature DC 10) shouldn't usually be rolled. Even if someone in the party has low Wisdom, at least one person in the party can light a fire. You only need to make that check if the weather is really bad (at which point, surviving the night might be a challenge on its own).
 
Last edited:

One of the things I like about it is that it limits "pile on" skill checks. What I'm wondering is how to handle extremely common skill checks like Perception. Players want to roll those Perception checks, and like clockwork anytime I ask one player to roll a Perception check, I'll get most of the rest of the group rolling (despite reminders about group skill checks, perception checks taking time, and needing to be in the same damn area!).

I hear ya. My solution was to drop Perception as a checkable thing. You notice something if I (DM) think you would, and if you took precautions, it's more likely that you did. I do sometimes call for perception saves, though, to spot traps and such.


But let's say there's a Journeyman level Perception challenge... First of all, how does a DM even determine that?

The same way he'd determine the DC.


Second of all, what does the DM say to players who ask, "wait, why can't I make a Perception check?"

Or instead of Perception insert Athletics or Stealth.

Because Nobody Does It Better.

Usually, for such situations, I call for someone to lead the check. If the group needs to break down a door, the character who functions as the strongman will generally take the lead and if he can't do it, it makes no sense that the halfling wizard can. You send the best man for the job.
 

I like this system, and could incorporate it into a house rule in 3e or 4e.

Allow a lot of take 10, and assign a flat DC a name. So journeyman might be DC 15, and expert DC 20, or whatever you think makes sense.

I notice that in 4e, something like this already exists for a lot of skills, for instance, a DC 30 is a hard knowledge question. Perhaps a character who can routinely hit a DC 30 is considered an "expert".

A typical unopposed adventure technique (eg lighting a fire, perhaps Nature DC 10) shouldn't usually be rolled. Even if someone in the party has low Wisdom, at least one person in the party can light a fire. You only need to make that check if the weather is really bad (at which point, surviving the night might be a challenge on its own).
I see, so it would just be a layer of rules on top of the DC rules. But then, at least as Mike Mearls outlines it, how do you explain an Apprentice making an Apprentice DC check needing to get a 15+, Journeyman making a Journeyman DC check needing to get a 15+, and a Master making a Master DC check needing to get a 15+?

It's pretty clear from his system that the named DCs don't correspond to numbers in the way we normally think on numbered DCs.

I hear ya. My solution was to drop Perception as a checkable thing. You notice something if I (DM) think you would, and if you took precautions, it's more likely that you did. I do sometimes call for perception saves, though, to spot traps and such.
That makes sense, but then you're back to Perception checks by another name, except the DM is the one who calls for them.

And then there's opposed Perception vs Stealth/Thievery checks. That would seem to circumvent this system entirely.

The same way he'd determine the DC.
So the only difference is naming it at the table "DC 15" or a "Journeyman task"?

I think it's a bit deeper...What you need to establish in this system is what a discrete skill ranking means, what tasks you can accomplish at that rank that no one of lesser skill could.

By way of comparison, in a numbered DC system like 4e where anyone can make any check, you don't need to think about the narrative difference between Acrobatics +5 and Acrobatics +15, since both characters can attempts a DC 20 Acrobatics check to balance across a 2" ledge.

In this system, there is something narrative implied about the 2" ledge and it's relationship to the PCs that means a PC with Apprentice training cannot hope to attempt it (without some clever plan or assistance to shift the DIfficulty) while a PC with Journeyman training can do it no problem. Now a judgment call has to be made about what is within that Journeyman cutoff, because the cutoff is especially impactful on play. The DCs become fuzzy. How a DM applies them will vary from table to table, heck, how a single DM applies them may vary from week to week. Is DC 16, 17, or 18 closer to Apprentice or Journeyman?

Because Nobody Does It Better.

Usually, for such situations, I call for someone to lead the check. If the group needs to break down a door, the character who functions as the strongman will generally take the lead and if he can't do it, it makes no sense that the halfling wizard can. You send the best man for the job.

Hah :) Great answer! I have 2 clarifying questions...

First, I don't know about your group, but one of the things I've noticed in my 4e games is PCs sometimes have to make checks that aren't their strongest. For example, Endurance checks for poison gas. Let's say there is only one character who has to make the check, cut off from the rest of the party. If their Endurance doesnt meet the Journeyman DC, they just fail outright, no chance for a roll?

Second, what about two evenly matched PCs? Say, a Druid and a ranger both have Master rank in Nature, and are attempting to recall a Master DC bit of natural lore. Who leads the check? Do they both get to roll?
 

First, I don't know about your group, but one of the things I've noticed in my 4e games is PCs sometimes have to make checks that aren't their strongest. For example, Endurance checks for poison gas. Let's say there is only one character who has to make the check, cut off from the rest of the party. If their Endurance doesnt meet the Journeyman DC, they just fail outright, no chance for a roll?
Sometimes, everyone needs to roll, because circumstances warrant. You only need one person to light a fire or knock down a door, but everyone has to jump across the pit if they want to continue going. That would probably mean the most mandatory pit jumps would be Novice checks, or Journeyman checks where you can reasonably be expected to have some aid - the traditional "send the ranger ahead to affix a rope" method.

As for poison gas, that would be a Constitution save rather than an Endurance skill check. The difference between saves and skill checks is pretty important, so it seems like a safe bet that all saves would be in the range where everyone would need to roll for it.
 

I see, so it would just be a layer of rules on top of the DC rules. But then, at least as Mike Mearls outlines it, how do you explain an Apprentice making an Apprentice DC check needing to get a 15+, Journeyman making a Journeyman DC check needing to get a 15+, and a Master making a Master DC check needing to get a 15+?

It's pretty clear from his system that the named DCs don't correspond to numbers in the way we normally think on numbered DCs.

I agree with this. If the Ranks are nothing but descriptions for target numbers, they are at best an alternate way of describing DCs ("journeyman" instead of "Hard") or at worst an unnecessary complication.


That makes sense, but then you're back to Perception checks by another name, except the DM is the one who calls for them.

If you treat checks and saves the same (as 4e does) then yeah. Otherwise, no. One is a Save (defensive roll resulting from an situation proclaimed by the DM) and the other is a Check (testing an action proclaimed by the players). This is a fundamental difference, Perception Checks != Perception Saves. If one were to add this Rank system to 4e, I'd think it would be best to treat Perception as a Defense (basically only use passive perception) and drop Endurance from the skill list (and just use Fortitude).

I also think a system like works better with narrower skills, "Climb" instead of "Athletics", etc.


And then there's opposed Perception vs Stealth/Thievery checks. That would seem to circumvent this system entirely.

I don't use opposed checks, unless it's PvP. Everything is just a check vs. a DC, and I've been moving away from difficulties in general. If there are complications ("Oh noes! There's a guard we didn't foresee!") I will proclaim Disadvantage, but generally, I just use a static number (was 14, but I've been using PCs' own Save stat the last few sessions).

If it's an easy sneak (say, nobody's on watch, but they might still hear you), you don't need to roll, you just sneak. If it's difficult (or risky, there's a guard!), I'll call for a check except not from the Rogue, with his Move Silently ability. If it's further complicated, I'd call for a check with Disadvantage (with the Rogue having to do a check as well, but without Disadvantage).


So the only difference is naming it at the table "DC 15" or a "Journeyman task"?

I think it's a bit deeper...What you need to establish in this system is what a discrete skill ranking means, what tasks you can accomplish at that rank that no one of lesser skill could.

By way of comparison, in a numbered DC system like 4e where anyone can make any check, you don't need to think about the narrative difference between Acrobatics +5 and Acrobatics +15, since both characters can attempts a DC 20 Acrobatics check to balance across a 2" ledge.

In this system, there is something narrative implied about the 2" ledge and it's relationship to the PCs that means a PC with Apprentice training cannot hope to attempt it (without some clever plan or assistance to shift the DIfficulty) while a PC with Journeyman training can do it no problem. Now a judgment call has to be made about what is within that Journeyman cutoff, because the cutoff is especially impactful on play. The DCs become fuzzy. How a DM applies them will vary from table to table, heck, how a single DM applies them may vary from week to week. Is DC 16, 17, or 18 closer to Apprentice or Journeyman?

I think there's a narrative difference in DCs as well. Choosing a DC/Rank in this system carries a bigger "exclusion", making the choice somewhat more stressful for the DM, but I do think of a DCs 12, 18, 25 as having objective meanings of difficulty in the same way as "Journeyman" and "Expert" do--it's just that there's less harm in choosing a bit too high DC versus choosing that only Masters+ can attempt the task.

But this is also why I say there's too many Ranks. What's the difference between the Master and Grandmaster, exactly (etc.)? If you only have three Ranks as I previously suggested--Novice, Trained, and Master--it becomes a lot more straightforward:
  • If it's plausible that someone who had no formal training could do it, it's Novice.
  • If it's something a bit trickier that you would only expect those trained to be able to do it, it's Trained.
  • If it's something quite extraordinary, that you would only expect the best of the best to be able to do, it's Master.


Hah :) Great answer! I have 2 clarifying questions...

First, I don't know about your group, but one of the things I've noticed in my 4e games is PCs sometimes have to make checks that aren't their strongest. For example, Endurance checks for poison gas. Let's say there is only one character who has to make the check, cut off from the rest of the party. If their Endurance doesnt meet the Journeyman DC, they just fail outright, no chance for a roll?

I wouldn't use this system for something like Endurance checks against poison, because they are essentially saving throws, and I would never deny players a Save (which is a fast path towards revolution).

Otherwise, I think [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] answers this well enough.

Second, what about two evenly matched PCs? Say, a Druid and a ranger both have Master rank in Nature, and are attempting to recall a Master DC bit of natural lore. Who leads the check? Do they both get to roll?

I would probably let them both roll. Or them riffing off each other is resolved as one check, but with Advantage.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top