Skills over the top

[drnuncheon]

Does anyone else have this problem and what do they do with it.

A first level halfling thief can get up to +11 bonus to move silently and Hide. +5 for Dex(20), +4 Ranks, +2 Halfling bonus, plus they can take feats that help this even more.

A first level elven commoner can get up to a +12 bonus to Listen or Spot. +4 for Wisdom, +4 ranks, +2 racial, +2 Alertness. A human can do the same by adding Skill Focus. Nicely evens out, don't you think?

J

 

[PenguinKing]

Why is it that some DMs think characters aren't allowed to be good at anything??

I mean, I'm sorry, but to my mind, if you insist that your PCs be total incompetents when faced with anything but trivial tasks, you're just looking for an excuse to jerk them around. Your average starting character is not ten years old.

- Sir Bob.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

So does everyone use different DC's then the ones that are listed? Do you make them up?

In the middle of the game, if I don't have the DC noted, then I will make up a DC instead of stopping to look up the official one. It saves game flow.

Ie well, since a DC of 25 is too easy for them, lets make it 35 instead?

Well, what is your motivation here?

1) Your players specialized and can perform a couple skills too well and are ruining your adventures.

or

2) The DC's are so low for the players that they are bored because they always succede.

If it is #1, then you need to make your npc's more intelligently.

If a thieves in a world are easily robbing places blind, then secure places will begin to hire ex-thieves to protect them. (Similar to hackers in the real world.)

I have a lot of trouble believing it is #2- players have their characters specialize so they have a better then 30% success rate.

Have played in a bunch of them, and I am trying to figure out what to do with skills and DCs.

I still don't see the problem.

The only skill that was a possible game buster would be tumble, but with the "tumble vs. reflex save" check- it is fixed.

Why is being good at a skill such a problem?

Hide/Move Silently- is the whole party halfling rogues? One rogue going off on their own a lot is going to lead to their own death. BTW- you do realize neither of these has base DC's?

Perform- The bardic abilities based around perform are not powerful enough to care. I have trouble imagining the bard's perform check saving the day.

Search/Spot- These skills can never be high enough. Why put a secret door in the adventure if you don't want it found?

Good luck to you.

FD

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: Skills over the top

A first level elven commoner can get up to a +12 bonus to Listen or Spot. +4 for Wisdom, +4 ranks, +2 racial, +2 Alertness.

Those crazy 18 wisdom elven commoners.

You think they would do something a bit less common with such wisdom.

FD

 

[Sodalis]

I have always thought it was funny that the base ability score for anything on these boards is 20... not 16, 17 or 18.. but 20.

that would mean that you are th best individual of your race, and also your race is the best at that ability. you know how rare that would be- but 20's are a dime a dozen on these boards....

Hell- if you were born with that much talent, you deserve to walk through other traps made by people who were not as innately talented as you- but worked just as hard.

being that we are gamer nerds- I assume that we are geeks (myself included) and remembering back in school- i would study like one day out of the quarter (day before the test) and still get a higher grade than most, if not all the people in my class- who studies on a regular basis. what does that mean? well- If i honed my skill, then I would be so much more successful.

Anyhoo- if you start off with a 20 dex- and then ocus your skills on one aspect- then you deserve to walk through things that normal people might consider difficult.

A DC 25 is hell for human with a 12 dex and 4 skill in hide... actually it is darn near impossible... but he worked just as hard as the halfling- just his innate abilities are a little lacking...

 

[Kershek]

Why is it that some DMs think characters aren't allowed to be good at anything??

I mean, I'm sorry, but to my mind, if you insist that your PCs be total incompetents when faced with anything but trivial tasks, you're just looking for an excuse to jerk them around. Your average starting character is not ten years old.

- Sir Bob.

I totally agree. If they spend all this time and effort being good at something, let them! So what if their concentration is so good they can cast and not worry about spell failure. Ad nauseum. They're heroes - they're supposed to be good at what they do.

It's up to the DM to challenge the characters appropriately. Give them situations where they excel in their best skills. Then give them situations where they are forced to use skills they didn't bone up. If you mix it up, they will feel both pleased that their point spending mattered and understanding that they're not good at everything. It may also entice them to put some points elsewhere to make their character more well-rounded.

 

[Romotre]

hey furn...read any vonnegut latetly?

forced to wear lead boots, of varying weight, until they have an equivilant to a 10 Dex.

 

[kamosa]

Salutations,



Scry is limited a bit by magic availability, but I would agree Tumble at a fixed DC is a problem. The idea of ever being able to confidently tumble by a dragon in battle concerns me.

One of the WOTC splat books suggest making the tumble check vs. target reflex save- which I found to be a satisfactory solution.

FD

Of course you could always apply one of 'dem 'dare situational modifiers to the tumble roll. I would say tumbling by yawn dragon might be a +5 or so to the roll. Don't forget they be big as well so you might have to make the roll for each five foot square. Just a thought.

 

[Negative Zero]

i absolutely agree with the people who've commented on the percieved problem of having PCs good at stuff. i've noticed, on these boards, what seems a tendacy for DMs to deliberately go out of their way to try to "get" their players. and i really don't get this.

at first, i assumed that it was meant in jest, but i'm not really sure anymore. i always thought the role of the DM was to create an enjoyable story FOR her players. if your player are good at something, it's your job to create situations that challenge them and allow them to shine. not to gripe and try to figure out how to punish them for it!

hide and move silently, will always be opposed rolls, so you don't really need to worry about static DCs. they will continue to scale as the characters become more powerful and face more powerful enemies.

as for the notion of playing NPCs more intelligently, i absolutely agree ... to a point. just coz the DM running them has an 18 intellignce and 50 ranks in Knowledge: Player Tactics, doesn't mean that the guy running the smuggling ring is a genius. NPCs should be played to their own stats. make sense motive rolls for them before you let them react to something you know the player is going to do; intelligence checks to see if they'd remember to/think of a particularly nasty/creative idea.

the same should of course go for helpful/friendly NPCs. just coz the DMs running them, it doesn't mean that a friendly NPC can't come up with a good idea, or make good tactical decisions. (of course this shouldn't be done all the time.) by the same token, they should still make mistakes as well. both friendly and enemy NPCs.

let's not forget that this game is supposed to be the PC's story. not "How I Killed My Group This Time." ... but i digress. but before i quit while i'm behind, Furn_Darkside, how may time have your PCs fought dragons? do they really think that they can tumble by it with condifence?

~NegZ

 

[shouit]

i absolutely agree with the people who've commented on the percieved problem of having PCs good at stuff. i've noticed, on these boards, what seems a tendacy for DMs to deliberately go out of their way to try to "get" their players. and i really don't get this.

I am not trying to "get" my players, it is just that I have been looking at the DC's in the book have me wondering sometimes. Let's take my example of Perform. If the player makes a DC of 30, that means the had an outright amazing preformance and that it "may" attract the attentions of an extraplaner creature. Granted, doesn't have to be a nice extraplaner creature. A fifth level bard worth his salt will have maxed out perform + 8, have around at least 16 Cha, which gives +3, most likely have a mastercraft instrument, another +2, and may have skill focus, + 2. For a grand total of +15. Which means 25 percent of the time, they may get the attention of an extraplaner creature. Yes, I know this states "may" but isn't that a little extreme? That is all I am getting at. And with the halfling example, it even gets more obsence.
I say let the players do what they want, but how does one rule on the bards case? Just let it fly? Do I make NPC's like that as well? Ie for a bard music contest? Just curious. I am not trying to get at my players, just curious. Thanks.