Skills over the top

[Heretic Apostate]

In Dragon Magazine, in a series of little sidebars/snippets called "Power Plays," the staff at WOTC actually goes out of its way to make these "one-trick ponies."

So, there is a precedence for 18 to 20 stats, maxed out skill ranks, skill-focus feats, and so on. And they're built into the game.

Give the players with these single-minded characters time to shine. But also put them in a few instances where their skills fail them, because they neglected OTHER skills.

 

[Negative Zero]

once again, with the example you stated, you're assuming someone with exceptional stats, years of dedication, and an even more zealous pursuit (skill focus) than most. she will have other skills that need attention too. also, do you roll stats for everyone in the town/world? no, you probalby don't. for the most part everyone else is just Joe Schmoe. a few will have better than average abilities but only a few.

PC are supposed to be exceptional people. of course, they're not the only exceptional ones in the world, and their antithesis may actuay exist. but those should be memorable occasions.

as for the extra planar attention, set a value, and use percentiles to see, IF a performance catches any attention, and then again to see IF the being actually does anything. the same being seeing/hearing the same mortal over and over giving amazing performances might want to pop in to say hi.

by the same token, if a PC bard gives an amazing performance, and it catches someone's attention, they may decide to keep an ear/eye out for them, and when the next performance is lackluster they quickly lose interest in the mortal who just got lucky.

also, i could be wrong, but aren't those rules for attracting extraplanar creatures used for when the bard is specifically performing for a crowd? somehow i always thought that using the perform skill to, inspire courage or countersong for example, didn't really count as the same thing. just coz you're using hte same skill doesn't mean that you use it the same way. right? or have i lost my mind again and haven't realised? "p

there's always a way to work these things out. but it's important to note than in all that i've said, i've never DMed before, so make sure you take it with a grain or two of salt

~NegZ

 

[Trousers]

Neg Zero -- you may never have DMed before, but I think your assessment is right on. All the examples used so far are power-game tactics, but they all focus on one skill. That can be explained in a role-playing manner (Olympian). When it's +11 to 2-3 skills at first level.... OK something's broken.

And yes, I'd say the different bard musics are using different applications of the skill.

One question: where is that extra-planar rule for the Perform ability??? I missed that one!

 

[KnowTheToe]

Why is it that some DMs think characters aren't allowed to be good at anything??

I mean, I'm sorry, but to my mind, if you insist that your PCs be total incompetents when faced with anything but trivial tasks, you're just looking for an excuse to jerk them around. Your average starting character is not ten years old.

- Sir Bob.

I don't think that the DM does not want the characters to be good at something, but the DM does not want to be required to metagame the character skills to create chalenging solutions. If by third lvl a character can tumble past 12 orcs to kill the leader, pick masterwork locks, climb mount everest etc. What challenges are they going to find for the players by 7th+ levels?

 

[Victim]

Wow, I never thought that tumbling past enemies was the same as defeating them, and the leader will probably be at least as tough as the rogue or monk in hand to hand. If he wasn't as tough, then the taking out the leader isn't such a big deal as he'd be toast against the fighter.

I don't see many of the cases presented as a big deal. Some thigns are going to be easier than others. Sometimes a skill will be important and other times it won't. A strong fighter can sometimes be all the "lockpick" a group needs.

 

[Negative Zero]

Neg Zero -- you may never have DMed before, but I think your assessment is right on. ... One question: where is that extra-planar rule for the Perform ability??? I missed that one!

thanks Trousers, much appreciated as for the extraplanar thing, check the bottom right hand side of pg 71 in your PHB. under the Perform skill, it says: "With time, you may draw attention from distant potential patrons or even from extraplanar beings." doesn't sound all that immediate when put like that does it?

and i think Victim's observations are spot on too. in the three games i play in (yeah yeah i know! ), none of our fighters could go one-on-one with any of the "big-bosses" when we get to the major battles. it ALWAYS requires soem good teamwork. when that breaks down, and we start to make stupid mistakes, we get in big trouble!

~NegZ

<edit>
woohooo looks like i'll hit 100 posts tonite!!!
*NegZ grins like an idiot*

 

[Vander]

Boy this is gonna throw em...How about a 15th level Bard in my campaign who gets a +41 on Diplomacy! He is not very good in Dungeon crawl type adventures, but City adventures are his forte! Diplomacy, Bluff, Perform, Sense Motive, are all pretty good.

 

[kamosa]

Wow, I never thought that tumbling past enemies was the same as defeating them, and the leader will probably be at least as tough as the rogue or monk in hand to hand.

I think the problem arises from the fact that most encounters are set up for the fighter to solve them with a strong swing of the sword. Most of the GM whining I hear on these boards arises from situations where characters try something other the swordplay to solve a situation. Many don't consider tumbling past the flunky orcs to kill the leader, and perhaps cause the flunkies to surrender or fail moral as a valid tactic for solving a situation. They see combat as character X killed Y creatures and took Z damage. Many GM's feel that using your skills to make a seemingly hard combat easy is showing up the GM and her plans, not a clever way to solve a situation.

They don't set up encounters where the thief MUST tumble past the flunkies or the party is going to get whacked. Or a situation where the priest must make a concentration check to get off a key spell or the party is screwed. No, most encounters don't get past the "Monster has X hitpoints and does Y damage" phase of creativity.

But I guess it is the players or the systems fault.

 

[Negative Zero]

personally, i think anytime a GM assumes that there's only one way to solve a given situation, whatever that way is, she's shortchanging both herself AND her players. my DM's favourite complaint is that we're advancing his story too far, too fast. coz we keep doing stuff that he doesn't expect, and we keep unearthing more info than we're prepared to deal with. of course, he always says it with a big goofy smile, coz in his words, it's the surprises and the look on the players faces that he plays for.

i think that for the most part, there might very well be a notion that it's the fighter's job to "solve" situations. afterall, when people talk about balance, they're usually talking about hitpoints and damage. skills that govern roleplaying aspects of the game are, for the most part, a pretty new invention. people have how many years of habit to break?

dammit! i digress yet again!
imma shut up now
~NegZ

 

[kamosa]

personally, i think anytime a GM assumes that there's only one way to solve a given situation, whatever that way is, she's shortchanging both herself AND her players. my DM's favourite complaint is that we're advancing his story too far, too fast. coz we keep doing stuff that he doesn't expect, and we keep unearthing more info than we're prepared to deal with. of course, he always says it with a big goofy smile, coz in his words, it's the surprises and the look on the players faces that he plays for.

i think that for the most part, there might very well be a notion that it's the fighter's job to "solve" situations. afterall, when people talk about balance, they're usually talking about hitpoints and damage. skills that govern roleplaying aspects of the game are, for the most part, a pretty new invention. people have how many years of habit to break?

dammit! i digress yet again!
imma shut up now
~NegZ

Is this the point where I jump up and shout "Ahmen brother"?



My thinking is that before we need another monster manual, we need a skills challenge manual and a spells challenge manual. We need a book that goes through each of them and gives GM's ideas for how to broaden their game. To incorporate, not fear, player skills and powers.

You keep on digressing brother, sing it!