[Skills] Solutions to the oblivious rogue problem

[Fifth Element]

Wisdom is, and always has been, a rubbish stat.

This is the reason that solutions to this seem kludgy. But the six ability scores would surely be the last scred cow to die.

But it's not really Wisdom's fault, it's the fact that perception was tied to Wisdom. That's the cause of the issue, and they might look at treating the cause rather than the symptoms.

 

[Fifth Element]

I think there are a couple of questions that should be answered before a Skills mechanic is considered, and then a Skills mechanic should be judged on whether it gives the correct answers to those questions.

In the context of recent D&D skill systems, this analysis is essentially asking: how big should the skill training bonus be? What should the relative contributions of training and aptitude be?

But the specific issue in question arises more from this question: which ability score should apply to the situation? Regardless of what the skill training bonus is, is Wisdom the best design choice for this skill?

 

[Andor]

To my mind the problem with the oblivious rogue is that a newbie with poor understanding of the system built a clueless rogue.

And that's not bad, really. I'd rather be able to make Belkar the oblivious ranger, than be strong armed into being good at everything somebody else thinks my character is supposed to be good at.

Stats should effect performance. An idiot will never be as good at programming or calculus as a genius, that klutzy genius will never be at good at basket ball or trap shooting as the dexterous idiot.

"It's your job" is not a reason to take talent out of the equation, some people suck at their jobs. I don't think 5e is going to go down the system mastery road of 3e, but asking people to put high number in relevant stats for things they want to be good at, and low numbers in stats means they acknowledge a weakness in that dept, I'm okay with it.

That having been said an "Expert Basketweaver" feat that grants advantage for use of a trained skill seems fine to me.

While we're on the subject I don't think I'd have a problem with an "Idiot savant" feat that replaced a stat bonus with a flat +3 or +5 for the purpose of one skill, to showcase the alcholic forger whose tremmor somehow goes away when he picks up the tools of his trade.

The reason that is good is it allows you to overcome a weakness but at the not inconsiderable cost of a feat to show the effort you put into overcoming your weakness.

And as it is recall that while the cleric can score higher on a trap spoting roll than the rogue, the rogues skill mastery means he still has the better average.

 

[Andor]

As far as the perception stat, Wisdom is fine to me. If you're not perceptive how will you aquire wisdom? If you can better percieve the will of the gods through their subtle signs will you not be a better cleric?

As far as intelligence as the perception stat goes... I have a friend who is a certifiable genius. I once watched him walk into three consecutive telephone poles so .... no.

 

[hamstertamer]

This, in my opinion, is an issue that is not an issue.

1st level Cleric Wis 16 Wis has a 65% chance to Spot a DC 10
1st level Rogue Wis 10 with 4 Ranks has 70% chance to Spot a DC 10.
8th level Cleric Wis 18 has a 70% chance to Spot a DC 10.
8th level Rogue Wis 10 with 11 Ranks has 95% chance to Spot DC 10. (only fails on critical miss)

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

This, in my opinion, is an issue that is not an issue.

1st level Cleric Wis 16 Wis has a 65% chance to Spot a DC 10
1st level Rogue Wis 10 with 4 Ranks has 70% chance to Spot a DC 10.
8th level Cleric Wis 18 has a 70% chance to Spot a DC 10.
8th level Rogue Wis 10 with 11 Ranks has 95% chance to Spot DC 10. (only fails on critical miss)

Sure, not an issue in.. 3rd Edition? Which we're not discussing?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

As far as the perception stat, Wisdom is fine to me. If you're not perceptive how will you aquire wisdom? If you can better percieve the will of the gods through their subtle signs will you not be a better cleric?

As far as intelligence as the perception stat goes... I have a friend who is a certifiable genius. I once watched him walk into three consecutive telephone poles so .... no.

Well, walking into a telephone pole would be passive, and use Wisdom.. at least in my theoretical division of perception.

 

[ren1999]

A rouge trained by experienced rouges in finding traps should have a much greater chance of finding traps than just someone with a high wisdom.

How do we do this?
Someone with a maximum natural wisdom of 20(+5) and no Find Traps Skill gets a +5 to find traps.

The person with Find Traps Skill should get a starting +6 and be able to progress in level up to +10

That means no magical enhancements to skills.
That means we are going to have to recalibrate every skill.

 

[Mallus]

Let’s say we have three PCs, Angus, Bob, and Chris, who are all attempting to weave a basket. The DM calls this a Dexterity check.

Angus has an 18 Dexterity.
Bob has an 18 Dexterity and is trained in basketweaving.
Chris has a 10 Dexterity and is trained in basketweaving.

Interesting breakdown and examples. Answers to follow.

Q1. Is it okay if Bob’s best possible basket is no better than Angus’s best possible basket?

Yes.

Q2. Is it okay if Bob’s best possible basket is no better than Chris’s best possible basket?

Yes.

Q3. Is it okay if Angus’s best possible basket - given that he’s never made a basket before but has plenty of natural ability - is better than Chris- who has been making baskets all his life but has only average natural aptitude?

Is the reverse okay?

Yes.

I think think the only thing that really matters is that on average, Bob is more successful at basket weaving than either Angus or Chris, and it's fine if Chris and Angus are about equally successful (because adventure fiction protagonists are usually a mix of trained and innately talented).

That's all the skill system need reflect. I'd like a system that delivers answers quickly, and isn't set up to discourage non-specialists from attempting an action. Over the course of a campaign, PCs attempt a broad range of actions. Therefore, I want broadly competent characters under a system where specialists reliably succeed but non-specialists aren't mathematically excluded from succeeding.

And I don't think the task resolution system needs to concern itself with, "whose basket is best?" It's enough to say: "okay, you make a basket" (and move on). I'd rather see the degree of success determined by the fiction, ie, which PC has the best materials, favorable circumstances, etc.

 

[ren1999]

Bob's basket should be better than Chris'.
Angus should not be allowed to make a basket.

Angus' 18(+4) won't be a factor in basket weaving at all.

Bob will have two sets of bonuses (+4)natural and (+6) trained.
Chris will have (+0)natural ability and (+6) trained.

When there is a contest of skills and both are equally trained, Bob and Chris will roll their natural bonuses.