Slaad-a-palooza!

[law]

demiurge1138 thanks for the book on slaad . Over time I will most likely add onto it myself good work man. vbmenu_register("postmenu_1282541", true);

 

[zeo_evil]

Yeah. I shifted fast healing to 1 at 4th level, 3 at 10th level, and 5 at 13th level. As far as the rest, it is pretty fair against a fighter, a monk (most similar damage), and the vrock class in Savage Species. I did some characters. They made good characters for their level. They lack versatility, but make up for it in combat ability. I am still waiting for Demiurge to chime in!

 

[allenw]

First off, my thanks to demiurge (and the rest of you) for creating this thread. It'll be a big help to me in an upcoming scenario, particularly the Violet Slaad (partially quoted below).
However, I do question one aspect of the aforementioned Violet: If a Human Sor-16 NPC is CR 16, how can a Violet Slaad "cast spells as a 16th-level Sorcerer" and be only CR 17? Consider a Death Slaad Sor-16. Even with the feats, skills, and stat increases from 16 character levels, I don't think such a character would be a much bigger challenge than a Violet Slaad (especially in Limbo), and yet it's CR would be 31 (!), or "only" 23.5 if you counted Sorcerer as an "unassociated class" for Death Slaad (which I probably would; note that this only would apply up to Level 15, since Death Slaad have 15 racial Hit Dice, hence 13+7.5+3 = CR 23.5).
Looked at another way: To get a CR-17 Death Slaad Sorcerer, I'd take a Death Slaad (CR 13) and add 8 levels of Sorcerer (unassociated). Clearly, the (CR 17) Violet Slaad as written is vastly superior to a Death Slaad Sor-8 in every significant respect.
Anyone have any suggestions as to what a more balanced CR-17 Violet Slaad should have for a Sorcerer caster level? CR 17 is about right for my purposes, so I don't care so much about the converse, "what CR should a CL-16 Violet Slaad be" question.

-allenw

Violet Slaad
Medium-sized Outsider (Chaos, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 18d8+108 (189 hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 30ft (6 squares), fly 60ft (good)
Armor Class: 30 (+6 Dex, +7 natural, +7 insight), touch 23, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+22
Attack: Claw +22 melee (4d4+4) or +22 melee touch (spell) or +24 ranged touch (spell)
Full Attack: 2 claws +22 melee (4d4+4) or +22 melee touch (spell) or +24 ranged touch (spell)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks: Creation, decomposition, spell-like abilities, spells, stabilize Limbo, summon slaad
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft, DR 15/lawful, fast healing 10, immune to sonic, instinctual defense, resistance to acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5 and fire 5, uncanny dodge
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +17, Will +18
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 22, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 24
Skills: Appraise +26, Bluff +28, Concentration +27 (+31 for casting defensively), Diplomacy +11, Hide +27, Knowledge (arcana, planes) +26, Intimidate +30, Listen +28, Move Silently +27, Search +26, Sense Motive +28, Spellcraft +28, Spot +28, Survival +28 (+30 when tracking, +30 on other planes, +32 when tracking on other planes)
Feats: Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Dodge, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Spell Focus (conjuration)
Environment: Ever-Shifting Chaos of Limbo
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 19-27 HD (Medium-sized), 28-54 HD (Large)

Creation (Su): Three times per day, a violet slaad can spend one minute concentrating (as if casting a spell with a duration of one minute) and create up to 300 cubic feet of non-living matter. This matter is permanent on Limbo, but vanishes if brought off plane. Alternatively, they can create up to 100 cubic feet of living plant matter, or any creature with a Challenge Rating of 5 or less. Creatures created in this fashion always have the anarchic template (see Manual of the Planes).

Decomposition (Su): Once per day the violet slaad may make a touch attack in order to utterly destroy an opponent. An opponent touched must make a Fortitude save (DC 26) or be killed and reduced to their basic components (a few gases, a pile of dust, and water in most cases). A creature killed in this fashion may not be raised, resurrected or reincarnated; only a wish or miracle spell may bring them back to life, and even such potent magic has a 50% chance of failure.

Instinctual Defense (Ex): A violet slaad gains their Wisdom bonus as an insight bonus to Armor Class.

Spell-like Abilities: At will- chaos hammer(DC 21), detect thoughts (DC 19), dispel law (DC 22), finger of death (DC 24), fireball (DC 20), identify, magic circle against law, passwall, see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 22), tongues 3/day- animate objects, cloak of chaos (DC 25), great shout (DC 25), word of chaos (DC 24) 1/day- power word (blind) Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma based.

Spells: A violet slaad casts spells as a 16th level sorcerer.
Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (9/5/5/4/4/4/3/2/1, save DC 17+ spell level [18+ spell level for conjurations])
0- acid splash, dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue. 1- grease, mage armor, magic missile, shield, true strike 2- bear’s endurance, fog cloud, Melf’s acid arrow, mirror image, web 3- displacement, haste, ray of exhaustion, suggestion 4- confusion, dimension door, Evard’s black tentacles, phantasmal killer 5- baleful polymorph, cloudkill, major creation, prying eyes 6- acid fog, greater dispel magic, mislead, true seeing 7- greater arcane sight, plane shift 8- maze

Stabilize Limbo (Su): As a free action at will once per round, a violet slaad can control a spherical section of Limbo with a 30ft radius. Usually, this takes the form of a platform of earth with an atmosphere of air, but it can change this to create, for example, a ball of fire with a small pocket of air and earth in the center. See pages 93-94 of The Manual of the Planes for more information on controlled and stabilized Limbo.

Summon Slaad (Sp): Twice per day, a violet slaad can automatically summon 2 gray slaadi, 2-4 coral or green slaadi, or 3-5 red or blue slaadi. This is the equivalent of an 8th level spell.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A violet slaadi retains its Dexterity modifier to Armor Class even if it is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. Violet slaadi cannot be flanked, and cannot be sneak attacked by a flanking rogue unless that rogue is at least 22nd level.

Feats: The Augment Summoning feat applies to any slaadi the violet slaad summons using its summon slaad ability.

 

[zeo_evil]

Well, I can't speak for demiurge, but I would say it is just fine as is. For consideration, a trumpet archon has a 12 hit dice, casts spells as a 14th level cleric, and is CR 14. Looking at the violet, its abilites (with the exception of decomposition and its spell-like abilities) don't really add up to much in combat, which is what CR is all about. Stabilize limbo is strong, but in relation to when and where a creature is fought, it holds no power outside of Limbo (which is what EL is all about). The other abilities mimic or can be duplicated by class features or spells (see Savage Species for more information on what I mean), so they sort of "come along" with the Hit Dice like a sorcerers class abilities. They don't add much. I disagree about the death slaad. Just think about mage armor, shield, bull's strength, blur, displacement, haste, etc., etc., It would all be in how you used the death slaad's spells. Consider greater invisibility while you use the spell-like ability implosion...
Thoughts?

 

[allenw]

Thanks for your reply, even though I disagree with it.
Personally, I think the trumpet archon is also mis-CRed, though not as badly; at least in its case, its hit points and BAB aren't vastly greater than a 14th-level Human cleric, while the same is not true for a Violet Slaad and a 16th-level Sorcerer. Also, the Trumpet Archon has only 1/3 the gear of a 14th-level NPC, while a Violet Slaad has over 2/3 the gear of a 16th-level NPC.
On your other points:
1: The odds of encountering a Violet Slaad outside of Limbo seem remote, so I think Stabilize Limbo (and Creation) should count towards CR.
2: A Sorcerer *has* no "class abilities" apart from Spells and a Familiar. And I don't think that a Familiar stacks up well (CR-wise) vs. Augmented Summon Slaad and Decomposition, to say nothing of:
At will- chaos hammer(DC 21), detect thoughts (DC 19), dispel law (DC 22), finger of death (DC 24), fireball (DC 20), identify, magic circle against law, passwall, see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 22), tongues 3/day- animate objects, cloak of chaos (DC 25), great shout (DC 25), word of chaos (DC 24) 1/day- power word (blind). Caster level 18th.
3: All of the spells you mention would indeed be useful for Death Slaad Sor-8. And they (and many others) could all *also* be taken by a Violet Slaad, for at least as much utility, and cast more frequently. Yes, the Violet lacks Implosion, but it's still got at-will Finger of Death and Fireball, 3 CL-18 Words of Chaos a day, and one Power Word (Blind) a day, plus Decomposition. And its natural attacks are also better than a Death Slaad's (though lacking the "stun," which I don't recall if Death Slaadi kept in 3.5).

Well, I can't speak for demiurge, but I would say it is just fine as is. For consideration, a trumpet archon has a 12 hit dice, casts spells as a 14th level cleric, and is CR 14. Looking at the violet, its abilites (with the exception of decomposition and its spell-like abilities) don't really add up to much in combat, which is what CR is all about. Stabilize limbo is strong, but in relation to when and where a creature is fought, it holds no power outside of Limbo (which is what EL is all about). The other abilities mimic or can be duplicated by class features or spells (see Savage Species for more information on what I mean), so they sort of "come along" with the Hit Dice like a sorcerers class abilities. They don't add much. I disagree about the death slaad. Just think about mage armor, shield, bull's strength, blur, displacement, haste, etc., etc., It would all be in how you used the death slaad's spells. Consider greater invisibility while you use the spell-like ability implosion...
Thoughts?

 

[Felikeries]

well this is a style of slaad that is used for a D&D style that isn't in print
anymore,but i think it's interesting,shows some of the foundations for them

Death Slaad
AC 15 -1 +1
#1-5
hp 500
exp 600
dex 19
resistance/blessed attacks,blunt weapons
attack/claws,weapon,3 10thlvl wizard spells(1/e.)
damage/5d6,3d12 axe or 2d20 halberd,1 enemy affected spells only
special/1d10 multi-attacks each,dodge(2nd combat roll,1d10 each)
Slaads may be found when nearing an evil compound
or if a scouter has found the party,they are
all black and scaled and slither quickly with
a dodge defense.3d6 at 3d6 after 1 round
1 to 5 will use claw only attack and multi attacks
on the player matched with.

treasure/4000 gp 1 or group,4 potions(rnd)

 

[demiurge1138]

Looking back on it (sorry I've neglected this thread), I'd say that 18 (a boost of 1) would be enough to "balance" the violet slaad. But is it more powerful than a death slaad with sorc levels? Depends on how many. Personally, I'd say that sorcerer isn't a "favored class" for death slaadi (it usually isn't, unless the creature can already cast sorcerer spells), thereby giving it 2 levels per CR boost. Sounds about fair.

Demiurge out.

 

[allenw]

Hi! Once again, thanks for all the work.

Looking back on it (sorry I've neglected this thread), I'd say that 18 (a boost of 1) would be enough to "balance" the violet slaad. But is it more powerful than a death slaad with sorc levels? Depends on how many. Personally, I'd say that sorcerer isn't a "favored class" for death slaadi (it usually isn't, unless the creature can already cast sorcerer spells), thereby giving it 2 levels per CR boost. Sounds about fair.

Demiurge out.

I agree that Sorcerer would be an unassociated class for Death Slaadi. However, I think that a Death Slaad Sor-10 (CR 18.5) wouldn't be a fair match for a Violet Slaad with a similarly-focused spell selection.
For my campaign, I'm upping the Violet's CR to 18, swapping the at-will Finger of Death for at-will Greater Arcane Sight, dropping the Sorcerer spells to 14th-level-equivalent, and reshuffling the suggested spell list somewhat.

 

[demiurge1138]

Hm... it's been a while, hasn't it?

I loved this thread. A lot of good critters, a lot of good discussion. And now, I'm considering submitting a few of my slaadi to Dragon Magazine. You know, because. Of my slaadi, which of them do you think should get submitted?

To refresh the collective memory, my slaadi were;
Indigo
Coral
Yellow
Life
Violet
Prismatic
Colorless
Elemental- Flame, Fluid, Stone and Air
Gold
Silver
Platinum
Copper
Half-slaadi

I was considering submitting an article consisting of four of them. Perhaps the elemental slaadi, or the metallics, or just four of the others. Any suggestions?

Demiurge out.

Edit: I now believe that the violet slaad should have a CR of 20. 16 sorcerer levels for even a CR 18 is a bit much.

 

[BOZ]

good luck dude - i've been thinking about writing articles for Dragon myself.