Slaads are failures as exemplars of Chaotic NEUTRAL

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
All the other exemplars live on the outer planes. That's why efreeti aren't considered exemplars of lawful evil
Two things

1) Breaking the rules should kind of be Chaos's thing

2) I never said Fey should be "the exemplar". Just that they were a Chaotic race that I liked. Then people started claiming that "we need something from Limbo". And, in questioning why we need something from Limbo I got "Limbo is part of the default cosmology"... which is really not an answer for "why does the chaos exemplar need to be from Limbo" and in following that logic down the path, pointing out how it is kind of a silly tradition thing because it doesn't seem to be for any real reason we have now come to "well, everyone else does it" which brings me back to point #1

Why does Chaos have to follow the rules?
 
I actually think chaos is a bit of a special case among the alignments (for some similar and some different reasons from TN and NE). Those really are the three alignments with the deepest rabbit holes.

Order can never give birth to chaos

Yet are not all potentialities held within and birthed from chaos? Thense cometh order. Order. Born old. Stagnant. Yet it is the child. Not the parent. Chaos is in every way capable of generating order. But order DOES NOT generate chaos. Even though chaos may come about within orderly things, concepts of order are nevertheless simply not capable of actually GENERATING CHAOS. There is a difference between these two concepts. One is fertile alone. The other only when acted upon by another.

True exemplars of chaos should have rules. Only in so much that they adopt them randomly and drop them just as randomly. Randomly just as chaos can birth orderliness and then suddenly dissapate it. Something order does not ever do but is sometimes done to itself by the other.

I think the toon idea is an amazing one. And actually i think it very easily shoulders the mantle of chaotic exemplar. They are capricious. They may do thing for no reason at all and then randomly impose a rule on themselves. Then 2 minutes later the rule is just gone. Gravity works works works works works oh wait no it doesnt, now it works again woops only works while you hild your breath. Oops mow it only doesnt work when you sing. Unpredictibility. Unpredictable intent. Structure without reason. Reason without structure. Oh have some orderliness. Oops now its all gone.
 
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be wary of fey food they say?

Have otherworldly cosmic fear of toon food.

Perhaps it will turn your head into an anthropomorphic firework that shoots off into the sky and explodes with a mostly good chance your head will grow back. Mostly. Just because it was hit and spicy.

Maybe it smells amazing beyond logical comprehension and your ears (inexplicably) agree to enlarge to the size of wings, carrying you to it along the oddly visible scented breeze ears fluttering while you drift to it (flying) as if you are in a trance. Having no care for the peril you cross on that path.

Maybe its spoiled and the filthy taste causes your spirit to leap out of yoyr body in confusion as a ghost. Will save over 1d6 rounds to return to body after vomiting spiritually for 1d4 rounds.

With toon exemplars even food can be mortal peril. On a level that may both metaphorically AND literally make fey heads spin.
 
Here's a rough draft. Some of the abilities are influenced by the chameleon and jester classes and the rules for posession


Living Caricatures (Toons)

Small outsider [Chaos] [Incorporeal (see text)]

Ability Scores: Toons get +6 to one ability score, which must be their highest, -4 to one ability score, which must be their lowest, and +2 to all other ability scores. The ability score increase thet get every 4 HD is 2 (1d3?) points rather than the sgandard +1 increase. Despite being incorporeal in their true form all toons have a strength score that is used for the bodies they create from the substance of Limbo

Skills: All skills are racial calss skills for a toon. They gain a +4 racial bonus to Perform (Comedy)

Body of Limbo: Toons are incorporeal but create bodies for themselves out of the substance of limbo. Due to these bodies each toon has a strength score despite ultimately being incorporeal. The body can be any shape, and if a new body is formed it does not have to be the same shape as the previous one. The bodies have 1d3 + Toon's Consitiution Modifier hitpoints per hd of the toon. The bodies have regeneration 3 when on Limbo. They are not subject to death from massive damage or to extra damage from critical hits or sneak attacks regardless of location. If the body is destroyed they can spawn another one in 2d2 minutes, but only if they are on limbo. The body uses the toon's ability scores, modified for size and shape. The body's size can be one size category larger or smaller than small per 4 HD of the toon. They can also take the form of an item rather than a creature. They gain a +10 bonus to disguise themselves as whatever they are taking the shape of

True Form: A toon's true form is incorporeal and amorphous and is immune to direct attack as long as their body exists. They are immune to flanking and critical hits in this form, have resistance 5 to all energy types except axiomatic energy (such as from things like an Order's Wrath spell) and DR 5/Cold Iron or Law. At 15 HD, their DR and resistances increase to 10.

Warp Limbo (ex): On the plane of Limbo, Living caricatures can warp the substance of the plane to produce various effects similar to spells
Continuous- HD dependent bonus on Balance, Climb, Craft, Disguise, Hide, Jump, Swim, and Tumble, and Use Magic Device checks (equal to 1/2 monster HD, plus 1/4 of character class HD)
At Will- Minor Creation
3/day- Cure Minor Wounds, Inflict Minor Wounds, Major Creation, xxIndisputabke Posession (MoE p.97)xx, Perinarch (Planar Handbook), Repair Minor Damage
1/day- ,Erase, Fabricate, Repair Light Damage

Aptitude Focus (Ex): Once per day, you can select one of five areas upon which to focus your ever-shifting talents. After meditating for 1 hour, you gain the chosen abilities for 24 hours or until you change your aptitude focus. The focus can be changed after being set once per day per every 6 monster HD or 12 class levels. If you change to the arcane focus or divine focus ability, you must still obey the normal rules for preparing spells (including any rest required).
*Arcane Focus: gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (potentially using stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player’s Handbook for details). Your spells per day are noted on Table 5–2: The Chameleon from Races of Destiny. gain bonus spells for a high Intelligence score, just as a wizard does. When Table 5–2 indicates that you get 0 spells per day of a given spell level, you gain only the bonus spells you would be entitled to based on your Intelligence score for that spell level. Your caster level is equal to twice your racial HD plus one times your number of class levels. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks and Spellcraft checks and a +2 bonus on Will saves; The bonus increases by +1 for every three monster HD and for every 6 character class levels
*Combat Focus: gain profciency with all martial weapons. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus increases by +1 for every three monster HD and for every 6 character class levels
*Divine Focus: gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a cleric does, except that you cannot spontaneously cast spells. You can only prepare new divine spells at sunrise. Your spells per day are noted on Table 5–2: The Chameleon from Races of Destiny. You gain bonus spells for a high Wisdom score, just as a cleric does. When Table 5–2 indicates that you get 0 spells per day of a given spell level, you gain only the bonus spells you would be entitled to based on your Wisdom score for that spell level. Your caster level is equal to twice your racial HD plus one times your number of class levels. You also gain a +2 competence bonus on Knowledge (religion) checks and a +2 bonus on Fortitude and Will saves. The bonus increases by +1 for every three monster HD and for every 6 character class levels.
*Stealth Focus: gain trapfnding (see page 50 of the Player’s Handbook), uncanny dodge (see page 26 of the Player’s Handbook), a +2 competence bonus on Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Search checks, and a +2 bonus on Refex saves. The bonus increases by +1 for every three monster HD and for every 6 character class levels
*Wild Focus: gain wild empathy (see page 35 of the Player’s Handbook; treat your druid level as equal to your class level), woodland stride (see page 36 of the Player’s Handbook),a +2 competence bonus on Climb, Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (nature), and Survival checks, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus increases by +1 for every three monster HD and for every 6 character class levels
*Enhancer: A toon in the form of an object can enhance it as if it were a magic item. The toon
can duplicate magic item powers worth up to 2,000 gp per Hit Die. The toon is in control of the powers it bestows upon the item. It can take them away as a free action at a moment’s notice if the creature using the item does not act in a manner that the toon wishes. A toon can only use this affinity whenmin item form, and cannot bestow this on other items. Despite the toon's’s duplication of magic item abilities, they do not gain a magic item;s aura. Detect magic will not sense an aura; detect chaos will, however. Smart characters might notice that the item behaves strangely or has an unusual appearance (a magic weapon that isn’t masterwork quality, for example, is a tipoff that something is awry). A character who succeeds at a Spot, Search, or Appraise check opposed by the Toon's disguise check notes that there is “something strange” about the item.
*Mimicry: Some toons have the ability to take on the caricatured form of specific powerful individuals. When in this form they may activate this affinities to gain all the special abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, class based, spellcasting, etc) of the individual they are associated with, and their physical ability scores become those of the mimicked individual minus one. Their caster/manifester/initiator/class (etc) level for these special abilities is either their HD or the real individual's level minus two, whichever is lower. The save DCs for abilities gained in this manner are reduced by 2. All law-related abilities are changed to their chaoric equivalents. They cannot use this affinity to cast spells of a higher level than the original can cast, even if they have a better primary casting ability score than the real individual. They do gain any special bonus to disguise themself as their chosen individual beyond their normal bonuses.


Toonish Performance: The toon is the master of the verbal put down, the hilarious joke, or the savage verbal lashing. His words can inspire dread and outrage in his enemies or confidence and comfort in his friends.
Once per day per HD, the toon can use his wit to produce magical effects in those around him. Many of the effects rely on the use of Perform (Comedy) to establish their save DCs and other effects. Starting a toonish performance ability is a standard action, and the toon can maintain the performance (either as a free action or move action, depending on the specific performance used). The toon must keep up a steady stream of puns, insults, or jokes to maintain the performance's effect.
A deaf toon has a 20% failure chance when attempting to use his performance ability. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily number of toon's performances.
Fascinate (Sp): A toon can create a running stream of jokes, gags, and acrobatic stunts to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see or hear the toon, and able to pay attention to him. The toon must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three HD a toon attains beyond the 1st, they can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. An affected creature gets to make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 toon's HD + toon's Cha modifier). If a creature succeeds at this saving throw the toon cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. Creatures that fail this save sit quietly and listen to the toon's performance, taking no other actions for as long as the too continues to perform (up to a maximum of 1 round per HD of the toon). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the toon to make another Perform (comedy) check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming at ranged weapon athe target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.
Inspiring Quip (Su): A toon can boost his allies' morale with a joke that breaks their tension and invigorates their spirits, As an immediate action when an opponent misses an attack, the toon makes a wisecrack denigrating the foe's fighting ability. The toon must be able to see the unsuccessful attack. All allies within 30 feet of the toon gain a +2 morale bonus on all attacks against that foe for the rest of the encounter. The toon can use this ability more than once during an encounter to grant a morale bonus against multiple foes.
Taunt (Su): A toon can attempt to hurl such stinging insults and mockery against a foe that his opponent loses his temper in an explosive display. The toon targets one creature within 60 feet that shares a language with him or can see him. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 toon's HD + toon's Cha modifier). If he fails, the target gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls but takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. On its next turn the affected target takes the most direct route possible (charging if able) toward the toon that avoids any obviously dangerous terrain, such as a pit of bubbling lava. The target may stop if an opponent blocks its path and can move around its foes in such a way as to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity (unless able to charge). If the target does provoke an attack of opportunity due to thismovement, it immediately gets to make another Will save, this time with a +2 bonus. The toon must use a free action to continue to taunt his opponent each round, and if he cannot complete this act the taunt's effects immediately end. This is a mind-affecting and language-dependant ability.
Calming Performance (Su): A toon with 6 or more HD can diffuse the tension, anger, and simmering violence in a confrontation. He can cause all creatures currently affected by his fascinate ability to adopt a friendly attitude toward himself his allies, and all other creatures currently affected by the jester'sfascinate ability. This effect lasts for 10 minutes per HD of the toon. Calming performance is a mind-affecting, language-dependent ability.
Buffoonery (Su): A toon with at least 9 HD can caper and dance to distract his opponents in battle. The toon's outrageous actions distract his foe, leaving it unable to effectively defend itself. The toon can choose a single target within 30 feet to whom he has line of sight. The target must be able to see and hear the toon and gets a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 toon's HD + toon's's Cha modifier). If the target misses this save, it loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to its Armor Class. The target gains a new save each round the toon maintains buffoonery (a free action). If the target makes a successful Will save the effect ends and the target becomes immune to that particular toon's buffoonery for 24 hours.
Vicious Lampoon (Su): A toon with at least 12 HD can mock his opponents with such vicious, cutting humor that they lose confidence in their fighting ability. Every opponent within 60 feet of the toon who can hear and understand him must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 toon's HD + toon's Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save suffer a -2 penalty on attack rolls, skill and ability checks, and saving throws for as long as the toon continues to perform (as a move action), up to a maximum number of rounds equal to the toon's HD. This is a mind-affecting, language-dependant effect.
Vexing Dialogue (Su): A toon with 15 HD or more can create a running series of jokes, observations, and insults that breaks a single target's ability to concentrate. When the toon uses this ability, his target must make a Concentration check opposed by the toon's Perform (comedy) check to cast a spell, use a supernatural ability, or otherwise perform an act that would require a Concentration check to complete if the target suffered damage while attempting it. This effect lasts for 1 round. The toon can use this ability against a given target once per encounter. This is a mind-affecting, language-dependent effect.
Scathing Wit (Su): A toon with 18 hd or more can leave his target a dispirited, demoralized shell with a few choice, cutting remarks. The target can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2jester's level + toon's Cha modifier). If the save fails, the target suffers a penalty equal to the toon's Charisma bonus on attack rolls and saving throws. This penalty lasts for as long as the toon performs (a move action), for a maximum number of rounds equal to half the toon's HD. This is a mind-affecting, language-dependent effect. The target must be able to see and clearly hear the toon.


Spell-like abilities:
3/day - Protection from Law
1/day - Tasha's Hideous Laughter
Toons gain additional spell-like abilities as they gain HD. For every 2 racial HD or 4 class levels they gain an additional spell-like ability usable once per day. The level of the chosen spell must be less than one half of the toon's total HD

Mimicry- Some toons with at least 10 HD gain the special ability to turn into an on-point caricature of a specific individual that also has at least 10 HD and which must be within one size category of a size that the toon can change into. When in this form they may take on an affinity (see above) to gain all the special abilities (extraordinary, spell-like, supernatural, class based, spellcasting, etc) of the individual they are associated with, and their physical ability scores become those of the mimicked individual minus one. Their caster/manifester/initiator/class (etc) level for these special abilities is either their HD or the real individual's level minus two, whichever is lower. The save DCs for abilities gained in this manner are reduced by 2. All law-related abilities are changed to their chaoric equivalents. They cannot use this affinity to cast spells of a higher level than the original can cast, even if they have a better primary casting ability score than the real individual. They do gain any special bonus to disguise themself as their chosen individual beyond their normal bonuses.


Advancement: 3-30 hd and by character class (favored classes are Factotum, Jester, and Savant, plus any one other)
I knew from the sound of it that id love it and now that ive seen it i do. This is a marvelous exemplar and its making me come up with a lot of ideas. Thankyou for this inspiration. I love this.
 
Two things

1) Breaking the rules should kind of be Chaos's thing

2) I never said Fey should be "the exemplar". Just that they were a Chaotic race that I liked. Then people started claiming that "we need something from Limbo". And, in questioning why we need something from Limbo I got "Limbo is part of the default cosmology"... which is really not an answer for "why does the chaos exemplar need to be from Limbo" and in following that logic down the path, pointing out how it is kind of a silly tradition thing because it doesn't seem to be for any real reason we have now come to "well, everyone else does it" which brings me back to point #1

Why does Chaos have to follow the rules?
A thought:

Chaos probably randomly crapped out the rules at some point (because they happened at some point and if you go back far enough it will have been "without any sort of nevessary reason") that law so long ago began basing itself upon.

Ie chaos doesnt really follow the rules. It made them. Randomly. By spilling ita coffee on a napkin one day out of a quintillion and the coffee grounds made such a mesmerizingly interesting shape (totally a nonsense shape but chaos is crazy) that it decided "hey. You know what? Physics is a basic thing now until i get bored of it looks like itll be a fun gam-ooo a strawberry universal expansion stops for a decade as chaos concentrates on why bunnies (which dont exist yet) dont become strawberries by eating a lot of lemons. There is no record of this because time happened to stop and turn purplw for a while hey what was that thought i had again, said primal chaos? Oh yeah. Strawberries. another decade of philsobunnying then expansion resumes.
 

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
A thought:

Chaos probably randomly crapped out the rules at some point (because they happened at some point and if you go back far enough it will have been "without any sort of nevessary reason") that law so long ago began basing itself upon.

Ie chaos doesnt really follow the rules. It made them. Randomly. By spilling ita coffee on a napkin one day out of a quintillion and the coffee grounds made such a mesmerizingly interesting shape (totally a nonsense shape but chaos is crazy) that it decided "hey. You know what? Physics is a basic thing now until i get bored of it looks like itll be a fun gam-ooo a strawberry universal expansion stops for a decade as chaos concentrates on why bunnies (which dont exist yet) dont become strawberries by eating a lot of lemons. There is no record of this because time happened to stop and turn purplw for a while hey what was that thought i had again, said primal chaos? Oh yeah. Strawberries. another decade of philsobunnying then expansion resumes.
This is a fun story to write, but it isn't how this is being approached.

It is being approached, as I understand it, that Chaotic Neutral Exemplars must come from Limbo because Limbo is the Outerplane of Chaotic Neutral and thus must contain the Exemplar of Chaotic neutral.

Sure, we can say Chaos made these rules and is keeping with them until they are bored. But, they never get bored and this status quo never changes.

And, if Chaos is making unchanging rules. What is the point of Law/Order?
 
This is a fun story to write, but it isn't how this is being approached.

It is being approached, as I understand it, that Chaotic Neutral Exemplars must come from Limbo because Limbo is the Outerplane of Chaotic Neutral and thus must contain the Exemplar of Chaotic neutral.

Sure, we can say Chaos made these rules and is keeping with them until they are bored. But, they never get bored and this status quo never changes.

And, if Chaos is making unchanging rules. What is the point of Law/Order?
Timescale is the only word needed

The laws arent unchanging at all

The timescales cosmic events come at, their length in scale, is completely random as well.

We happen to be in a particularly (and randomly) long period of consistency. Something that eventually would happen in random chaos.

Also that actually is at least kinda how things happened. Go back far enough and everything happened randomly in d&d because the oldest gods dont have an eternal readon for having existed or beginning.

But thats less chaos by comparison to order and more or less the background tendancy of the primordial universe. Primordial chaos is not really chaos. Its neutrality in which chaos is unopposed but not aparent either because there is nothing to contrast against nor any "forms" to show phenomenological effect on. Therefore technically balanced precisely because there is literally no order yet. This is because the world of forms has not yet created emanations that impose influence on the phenomenological material planes yet. Early on the world of forms influence remains strictly within the world of the nuomenological.

If you look at a picture of the great wheel it strongly resembles plato's model if the physical cosmos. Its the visually hidden lore of that era of d&d. Its not written. Its drawn. But what it shows is basically conceptual cannon.

Hard ti say just how deep inti the visual illustrations the meaning penetrates but there is a good chance tgis is the true nature of that era of d&d cosmos.

It positions chaos as the parent of he other polarizing alignments but not in a philosophically unbalanced way.
 
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Chaosmancer

Adventurer
Timescale is the only word needed

The laws arent unchanging at all

The timescales cosmic events come at, their length in scale, is completely random as well.

We happen to be in a particularly (and randomly) long period of consistency. Something that eventually would happen in random chaos.

Also that actually is at least kinda how things happened. Go back far enough and everything happened randomly in d&d because the oldest gods dont have an eternal readon for having existed or beginning.

But thats less chaos by comparison to order and more or less the background tendancy of the primordial universe. Primordial chaos is not really chaos. Its neutrality in which chaos is unopposed but not aparent either because there is nothing to contrast against nor any "forms" to show phenomenological effect on. Therefore technically balanced precisely because there is literally no order yet. This is because the world of forms has not yet created emanations that impose influence on the phenomenological material planes yet. Early on the world of forms influence remains strictly within the world of the nuomenological.

If you look at a picture of the great wheel it strongly resembles plato's model if the physical cosmos. Its the visually hidden lore of that era of d&d. Its not written. Its drawn. But what it shows is basically conceptual cannon.

Hard ti say just how deep inti the visual illustrations the meaning penetrates but there is a good chance tgis is the true nature of that era of d&d cosmos.

It positions chaos as the parent of he other polarizing alignments but not in a philosophically unbalanced way.
Again, might be fascinating from a philosophical angle.

But, if I am playing a game with friends in the context of a single year and I tell them "the rules will randomly change" and then the rules never change, do you think they will buy "Well, we just happened to have an unusually long period of consistency, that can randomly happen."?

I doubt it.

And, we aren't even discussing this as observers within the universe, to whom the timescale might actually matter, we are viewing this as the ones writing the laws of the universe.

To make a less philosophical point. Let us say I write in my notes "The Flower of Dawn will never bloom, even via Wish magic." Then, I include lore and fluff about how the flower might bloom, about what people think will happen when the flower blooms. From the point of view of someone within that world, it makes for interesting pieces of lore connected to this famous landmark. To us as observers outside of the world, it is all a giant lie. The Flower will never bloom. There is nothing that will make it bloom, there is nothing that will happen as a result of that. No matter how interesting the story inside the world is, outside of the world the story is really about the delusions and beliefs of these people, not about the flower blooming.

And thus it feels with your angle on this. Yes, we can say "Chaos changes its laws when it feels like it, and it could happen at any time for any length of time, and create anything" but if we never write in changes to those laws, if instead we keep Chaos static and acting like everything else, then we are simply lying. Because chaos isn't going to change and do something different, because we aren't writing it doing anything different.
 
Again, might be fascinating from a philosophical angle.

But, if I am playing a game with friends in the context of a single year and I tell them "the rules will randomly change" and then the rules never change, do you think they will buy "Well, we just happened to have an unusually long period of consistency, that can randomly happen."?

I doubt it.

And, we aren't even discussing this as observers within the universe, to whom the timescale might actually matter, we are viewing this as the ones writing the laws of the universe.

To make a less philosophical point. Let us say I write in my notes "The Flower of Dawn will never bloom, even via Wish magic." Then, I include lore and fluff about how the flower might bloom, about what people think will happen when the flower blooms. From the point of view of someone within that world, it makes for interesting pieces of lore connected to this famous landmark. To us as observers outside of the world, it is all a giant lie. The Flower will never bloom. There is nothing that will make it bloom, there is nothing that will happen as a result of that. No matter how interesting the story inside the world is, outside of the world the story is really about the delusions and beliefs of these people, not about the flower blooming.

And thus it feels with your angle on this. Yes, we can say "Chaos changes its laws when it feels like it, and it could happen at any time for any length of time, and create anything" but if we never write in changes to those laws, if instead we keep Chaos static and acting like everything else, then we are simply lying. Because chaos isn't going to change and do something different, because we aren't writing it doing anything different.
For what reasn would you have to change the rules mid game when its during a randomly unusually long period of consistant physical cosmos?

That random time blip happens to be at least several millenia long.

Also no. I was saying that chaos changes the laws of the other alignments. Not its own. And again. Eternal time scale random blippiness. A bllion years s kess than a blink of an eye. Why wouod you have t change the rules?

Also my average campaign lasts longer than 2 years.

I and my friends favor long complex plots.

May not work for you, but learning about anything truly secret in my campaigns tends to take months of in game digging.
 

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
For what reasn would you have to change the rules mid game when its during a randomly unusually long period of consistant physical cosmos?

That random time blip happens to be at least several millenia long.

Also no. I was saying that chaos changes the laws of the other alignments. Not its own. And again. Eternal time scale random blippiness. A bllion years s kess than a blink of an eye. Why wouod you have t change the rules?

Also my average campaign lasts longer than 2 years.

I and my friends favor long complex plots.

May not work for you, but learning about anything truly secret in my campaigns tends to take months of in game digging.
You seem to be dancing around the actual point.

Cosmological timescales don't matter to most players, but that doesn't even address the point.

If you write a set of laws for the universe, with no intents on changing those laws, then the fluff of "at any time they could change, it is just an unusally long time of stability from our perspective, but only a blink from the perspective of eternity".... doesn't actually matter. Because the laws will never actually change.

This ins;t about secret knowledge within the campaign world. This is about the writer of the universe setting a course, and then trying to backdoor an excuse for why that course is actually something else. Why even bother? You can make it whatever you want, why not make it what you seem to want, instead of making it what it is and then saying that it is actually something different if you stretch time to infinity.
 
If you write a set of laws for the universe, with no intents on changing those laws, then the fluff of "at any time they could change, it is just an unusally long time of stability from our perspective, but only a blink from the perspective of eternity".... doesn't actually matter. Because the laws will never actually change.
Wont they though? A period of time can be largely stable and also can have many changes to aspects of the whole but not complete change to the cosmic whole. Just like gene mutations change a tiny little thing and leave an organism for the most part the same. You can have a similar effect with any object or pattern or force.
 

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
Wont they though? A period of time can be largely stable and also can have many changes to aspects of the whole but not complete change to the cosmic whole. Just like gene mutations change a tiny little thing and leave an organism for the most part the same. You can have a similar effect with any object or pattern or force.
No, they won't. You keep missing that I'm talking about the meta.

Here, let's do this. To really drive my point. I'm going to right a sentence and exclude all the vowels. I could at any point in time, go back and add vowels to this sentence. But, I declare right now, that I have zero intention of doing so. I might talk about doing so in the future, but at no time will I ever go and alter this sentence.

Ds tht mk mr sns, sng drct xmpl?

So, over an eternity of time, will this sentence ever change? I do not intend for it to ever change, so unless something else acts upon this, it won't change. It was written with the intent of never changing. So, aren't any claims I make about changing it just me deluding people? My intentions and my actions, which control the state of the sentence are both in leaving it exactly as it is in this post. No matter the philosophy we might put into this, nothing is actually going to change. And it was written with the intention of never changing.

So, is that sentence an example of an everchanging sentence that has no static form? No. It is static, written and intended to be static.
 

Chaosmancer

Adventurer
Of relevance to the order from chaos/chaos from order thing

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to show with this.

It is fun math, but some of the results (from the "Chaos Game") also seem a bit... I hate to say obvious, but once I saw them I can understand exactly why following the rules led to that result.

But, following a set of rules throughout Trillions of iterations is not Chaos. The reason you get the triangle "shadows" is because you will never head towards the hypotenuse of the triangle. You are always heading to a vertex.

I'd actually be interested to see how these formula work out in 3d. I might see if someone was able to model it, but I would expect quite similar results.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Honestly, more and more I want to just remove Chaos from the axis.

Chaos is just doing what you want, when you want, following whims, urges and desires... and doesn't that sound a lot like an animal? Do you think animals do anything except follow their whims, urges and desires, doing what they want to do?

But animals are listed as neutral. Because they aren't smart enough to be chaotic? So, chaos is only a thing if you are smart enough to not be an animal, but choose to act like one anyways? But elves are chaotic, and they are just people with funny ears and a penchant for art, poetry, and self-expression.

It all just ends up devolving into a mess of value judgements.
The problem comes from using the term Chaotic, while meaning “a being who values freedom over stability, and/or who doesn’t have any inclination to respect or follow rules unless they make sense, and views traditions as something that are only to be followed for a compelling reason.“

Trying to define Chaotic characters as driven by whim and instinct is just stupid.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I despise traditionalism, don’t see the value of nostalgia, and view rules as only legitimate if they continue to make sense in the context of making people’s lives better without enslaving individuals to their social order. I’m Chaotic. I like to think Chaotic Good.

My best friend votes no on new laws if he doesn’t care about or understand them. Literally, “if in doubt, vote status quo”. Rules exist to be followed unless there is a compelling reason. Social or academic progress is often more important than individuals or even subgroups. He is Lawful.
 

Bohandas

Explorer
It occurs to me that if the Slaadi were tweaked to look exactly the same then they could represent the idea that anonymity brings freedom and lack of accountability
 

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