D&D 5E Sleep is not a save-or-die spell (minor rant)

[CapnZapp]

"save or die" spells need neither allow a save, nor actually kill the subject.

Save or die is the accepted label for spells and effects that circumvent the regular way of defeating foes, namely shaving off hit points until they reach zero.

Each edition the power of these effects are circumscribed, lessened and otherwise been made less potent.

Once hacking hit points off of a foe was perhaps the slowest way to win a combat, something you resorted to when you did not have a spellcaster or she ran out of spells.

Now that dynamic has changed, because that is what players wanted.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

What [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] said. "Save or die" is just an accepted shorthand for "there is only a single roll - which might just be a comparison of some value of yours to a value set by the spell, rather than actually a roll of dice - to figure out if it works on not, and when it works you are pretty much defeated."

 

[mellored]

Sleep is basically an auto-damage spell.

It deals 5d8 (22.5) damage, with enough caveats, like rounding down to the nearest enemy health, to make it functionally worth 1/2 that.

Compared to magic missile, which deals 3d4+3 (10.5).

 

[slaughterj]

You also don't know your enemy's stats or saves. You're guessing either way.

Guessing at what? If you attack, then you get your result, and often figure out AC, and a fighter type is going to attack regardless if the foe has a high or low AC, there's no guesswork there. If you cast spells, you have a decent idea of what is a good or bad save for a foe (i.e., don't cast CON-save spells against giants, etc.) or what sort of immunity or resistance a foe may have (i.e., don't cast a fire bolt against the fire elemental). Guessing a foe's HP on whether to know if your Sleep spell will work or not is a totally different situation.

 

[Dausuul]

I think you're (the OP) missing the point and taking things far to literally. The sleep spell, especially in previous editions of the game, falls into the category of save-or-suck spells that are basically combat ending "I win" buttons: you either make the save (or in 5e have sufficient HP to not be affected) or you're out of action. Sometimes this category of spells, particularly in previous editions where the name was more applicable, is called "save or die", even when the spell does not actually kill the target. In most cases, the affected target might as well be dead: it is a simple matter to slit the throat of the sleeping enemy, or tie them up and toss them off a cliff, etc.

The fact that in 5e, the 'Save' part is no longer true (it is based on current Hit Points), and the 'Die' part was never technically true does not gist of the concept invalid, just misnamed.

The whole point of "save or die" spells, the reason they're an issue, is that they bypass hit points: A target can be taken down no matter how many hit points it has. Sleep doesn't do this. It's effectively a spell that deals 5d8 damage distributed across a group of targets, with a bunch of additional restrictions (the damage only affects creatures if it can reduce them to 0 hit points, you don't get to choose how it's distributed, and the damage can be "healed" if another creature uses its action to do so).

 

[CapnZapp]

Sleep still qualifies as a save or die spell from that definition.

It still bypasses hit points. It's still "make this roll or lose". It just has no effect if you're stronger or more heroic than some kind of baseline. That this baseline is expressed using the same currency (hit point) changes nothing, nothing "behind the scenes" anyway.

If it helps, look at it this way: any time your character is rendered ineffective with hit points remaining, you've been hit with one of these suckers.

Any time you're ineffective because you're out of hit point, you've been defeated "fair and square" and it's not a save or die.

(Obviously excluding silly antics such as abusing the imperfect physics engine of the game)

I would guess the reason why this might not seem so clearcut is that there are fewer and fewer true save or die effects for every new edition. This is because narratively they make a lot of sense. But from a game perspective, there's a reason why hit points were invented. (The ultimate save or die is when you're shot at with a modern firearm; either the shooter misses and you're fine, or he doesn't and you're basically down and out. If you want beefy barbarians valiantly standing up to hordes of orcs, you need to remove save or dies from the equation, preferably in a way that still allows some modicum of verisimilitude)

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I wouldn't say it bypasses hit points.

 

[CapnZapp]

I wouldn't say it bypasses hit points.

I would. And am.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I would. And am.

The problem with abilities that bypass hitpoints are that:

1. You are playing a different game than everyone else at the table. If you are doing "Int" damage while everyone else is doing HP damage, then your damage and their damage don't interact. Whoever gets their total to 0 first wins and the other damage might as well not exist.

2. "Tough" monsters can be taken out easily by targeting their lowest pool that you can damage. Monster has 400 hitpoints? No problem, their Int is 3, so your spell that lowers Int by 1d6 is much more powerful than doing HP damage.

Sleep has neither of these problems. Their hitpoint pool matters when determining if the spell succeeds. If your allies reduce the enemy's hitpoints then it increases the chance of your Sleep spell working. Tough monsters aren't immediately defeated by a sleep spells since they won't be affected at all.

Sleep doesn't have any of the problems of those older spells.

 

[Dausuul]

Sleep still qualifies as a save or die spell from that definition.

It still bypasses hit points.

No, it doesn't. It does the exact opposite of bypassing hit points. Your hit points are the gatekeeper determining whether the spell can affect you or not. If you have 41 or more, the spell slams into your hit points like hitting a brick wall.

As I said before, the point is that a save-or-die spell (or save-or-lose, if you prefer) can take down a target regardless of how many hit points it has. Sleep does not do this.