Sleep is the most worthless spell

[SteveC]

One other thing to remember with sleep is that if you hit a target while they're unconscious, they don't wake up automatically. That means you can really put the hurt on a monster if your group coordinates things.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, for sleep, it is all.....

"Do you feel lucky punk?


It is a good spell, especially at higher levels, but you have to build on it. The advantage of building on it is the save penalties will also work with higher dailies that stun and daze also.

It is for a certain build of wizard, that is all. Some dailies are for pretty much any kind of wizard, but not this one.

 

[mattcolville]

I think it's a great example of the clash of cultures between AD&D and D&D4.

In AD&D, spells just said stuff. Could say whatever the author felt was interesting to say.

"They fall asleep."

What does that mean? Well, what does it mean when you fall asleep? Lots of room for interpretation there. That what the GM's for, interpreting that stuff in a fair manner that didn't unbalance the game and then remembering that ruling and being consistent so the players don't rebel.

Certainly that kind of creativity is fun, made a great game. But also led to a lot of fights and arguments and what one group thought was obvious and never gave a second thought to, another group would fight about for years.

But that's a strange set of assumptions to base a game on.

D&D4 takes all those ideas and says "Right, if we can't figure out an objective, mechanical effect for this, then it's a ritual and screw it."

So everything's abstracted.

What does sleep mean in AD&D? I dunno, what does sleep mean in the real world?

What does sleep mean in D&D4?

• You’re helpless.
• You take a -5 penalty to all defenses.
• You can’t take actions.
• You fall prone, if possible.
• You can’t flank an enemy.
• You are unaware of your surroundings.
• Until you save.

Huge difference.

 

[Gort]

At the end of the day, it's still only a level one spell. Why should it defeat an entire encounter on its own? If it really bugs you that much, make a level 30 daily (it'd still be overpowered, but whatever) with the effect "Win one encounter", and rename the actual sleep spell to Drowsiness.

Let's compare it to a different level 1 daily - Brute Strike. Effectively just an attack that does 3D10+5 damage, for an average of 20 or so damage. How exactly does 20 damage stack up against your suggested level 1 daily which defeats an entire encounter?

 

[Stalker0]

I dunno, "I cast my daily, we won" is pretty close to how it works out when I see intelligent players playing Wizards. Wizard dailies are terrifying.

Yep, this is why I never could figure out why the felt the need to buff wizard encounter powers in the essential books. The wizard was never about encounter powers, it was about having the most powerful dailies in the game.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yep, this is why I never could figure out why the felt the need to buff wizard encounter powers in the essential books. The wizard was never about encounter powers, it was about having the most powerful dailies in the game.

It is always pleasant when non-problems get fixed.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

sleep is situationaly useful without pen to save bonuses...

I had an awsome wizard player that was a dwarf, staff wizard with Con, Int, Wis all like 16+ (I think he started with all 3 at 16) but at level 9 he was going to take the second implment orb soon (11th leve) so he had sleep for it. Well our characters where in a hard encounter, and our assassin tried to sneak away, and brought into this a second encounter... the dwarf pulled out sleep on 5 normal monsters and 4 minons... 9 saves 5 of witch failed (ok 3 of those where minons) but between the slow holding an extra round was a great moment (Maybe even the best of the campaign)

 

[TarionzCousin]

But then again, I sometimes miss the 'save or die' style effects of earlier editions.

What? You're crazy. Those are only fun if you're the--

But then again, I usually am the DM.

Oh. Never mind.

 

[Aegeri]

Will the DM ensure that monsters have access to similar Save-or-Die effects to use on the PCs (and will, in fact, use them from time to time)? If so, then at least the playing field will be equal and it should all balance out.

Already exists, a solid Jackalwere and Wraith encounter out of nowhere will end any level 3-5 level campaign instantly when it (inevitably) goes wrong. The point though is that DnD is not meant to be a level playing field for monsters vs. PCs. PCs are expected to win a good deal of the time (actually nearly all of it IMO) and so using such abusive combination's of monsters isn't considered really that useful for a long campaign. Challenging is really good of course, but an even playing field is not what you want!

 

[Baumi]

Sleep is awesome! We killed a Purple Worm that was 5 level above us thanks to the spell (the GM had really, really bad luck with his saves). We still needed over 10 round to kill it because it had extremely high defenses, even when helpless (old solo soldier design).

But there are many more daily 1 spells that are good alternatives if you don't like it, but before I give lengthly advice just check the great Wizard's Handbook:
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