Sleep is the most worthless spell

[LightPhoenix]

For good or bad, this is a core tenent in 4e power design, especially with encounter powers. Most encounter powers add a benefit when you are a certain build, and imo the majority of them aren't worth taking without that little something extra.

I don't have an issue with powers being more useful for different builds. Heck, one of the things I wish they had done is the PHB1 is gone further with that. The issue with Sleep isn't that it's adding something extra for Orb Wizards. Rather, the issue is that without the save penalty, the spell has a relatively minor effect for a daily power. Or, to put it another way, it's lacking in power relative to the other powers. In theory, Sleep should at least be in the same general ballpark as the other dailies independent of build. That is (IMO, of course) not the case, for the reasons I outlined.

Well, the thing is it is still a pretty decent spell. In a reasonable setup you can deprive the enemy of a good number of actions.

The key here is "in a reasonable setup." If you're presented with the option to hit nine enemies without hitting allies, or get lucky and have a creature fail the save five or six times, yeah, it's great. I can completely imagine a Stealth-Orb-Wizard sneaking up and dropping Sleep on a surprise round. There are strategies to using it, no doubt.

 

[Ryujin]

I don't know that anything with something like a 1/4 chance of providing an insta-kill, on a hit, could ever be referred to as "relatively minor.'

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Spells like this are more useful again at Paragon due to feats like War Wizardry and Twist the Arcane Fabric. War Wizardry virtually assures that you will miss allies in the area by virtue of a nice juicy -5 on attack rolls against them, while Twist the Arcane Fabric lets an Eladrin caster shunt allies out of the area of effect entirely.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't have an issue with powers being more useful for different builds. Heck, one of the things I wish they had done is the PHB1 is gone further with that. The issue with Sleep isn't that it's adding something extra for Orb Wizards. Rather, the issue is that without the save penalty, the spell has a relatively minor effect for a daily power. Or, to put it another way, it's lacking in power relative to the other powers. In theory, Sleep should at least be in the same general ballpark as the other dailies independent of build. That is (IMO, of course) not the case, for the reasons I outlined.

Well, maybe ideally. It is a rather swingy power though and the only way it is going to be better for a non-orb wizard is if it is better across the board, I think. At that point it verges on broken for some situations.

The key here is "in a reasonable setup." If you're presented with the option to hit nine enemies without hitting allies, or get lucky and have a creature fail the save five or six times, yeah, it's great. I can completely imagine a Stealth-Orb-Wizard sneaking up and dropping Sleep on a surprise round. There are strategies to using it, no doubt.

It doesn't have to be that extreme at all. If I clip 3 enemies with it on round 1 it on average will be as effective as killing one entire opponent on that round in terms of action economy. That assumes that slow deprives the enemy of an action and that you can get 3 enemies in the AoE and probably means you either started at long range or went first. These aren't really extraordinarily unusual situations, but definitely not going to pop up every encounter. Once a day though? Chances are not bad you'll get decent use out of it every day. This is all without optimization of course, it can get better, though it is still basically an opening gambit.

The other cool thing about Sleep though is that it IS a non-damaging spell that can knock an enemy out of action. There are VERY few such powers in the game. That gives it a rather unique set of RP uses. Want to disable a guard but you really aren't wanting to hurt him? Sleep is a pretty good choice. That may not sway a lot of wizards to put it in their book, but then again those kinds of considerations can make the difference in an adventure. Certainly in the old AD&D days players scratched for that kind of extra flexibility at low levels.

Overall it makes a decent level 1 spell. It can go from trivial to very powerful. That is one of the nice things with it, in the hands of a 1st level PC it could be useful, yet it can earn its keep at level 30.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I don't know that anything with something like a 1/4 chance of providing an insta-kill, on a hit, could ever be referred to as "relatively minor.'

1) It doesn't insta-kill. It's nasty to be sure, but it doesn't flat out kill the monster. And it still does have that 50% chance of waking up every round. If you can get five people to the sleeping guy to coup de grace him, the battle was over anyway.

2) It can't be controlled. It's basically flat-out luck to put an enemy to sleep, if you don't have OoI. I freely admit this is personal preference, but I'd rather have something more deterministic than random.

3) You have to be able to take advantage of it. Against a single enemy, it's very powerful. In fact, that's a big part of why OoI got nerfed. If you put one creature to sleep out of seven or eight? Still good, but not as superior as it's made out to be.

Well, maybe ideally. It is a rather swingy power though and the only way it is going to be better for a non-orb wizard is if it is better across the board, I think. At that point it verges on broken for some situations.

Such as, for Wizards with Orb of Imposition. Which is more an argument for OoI being broken than Sleep.

It doesn't have to be that extreme at all. If I clip 3 enemies with it on round 1...

Right, which is what I said in my first post (though it may have been missed, since Stalker0 accidentally edited it). The primary use of Sleep is an opening gambit; once your allies get in there, it becomes a liability (until Paragon, as Nemesis Destiny pointed out).

The other cool thing about Sleep though is that it IS a non-damaging spell that can knock an enemy out of action. There are VERY few such powers in the game. That gives it a rather unique set of RP uses.

We're not talking non-combat uses here though. This is strictly "Sleep is a crappy/awesome combat power."

Overall it makes a decent level 1 spell. It can go from trivial to very powerful. That is one of the nice things with it, in the hands of a 1st level PC it could be useful, yet it can earn its keep at level 30.

I'd argue that's a problem with the power, not a benefit.

 

[Ryujin]

1) It doesn't insta-kill. It's nasty to be sure, but it doesn't flat out kill the monster. And it still does have that 50% chance of waking up every round. If you can get five people to the sleeping guy to coup de grace him, the battle was over anyway.

2) It can't be controlled. It's basically flat-out luck to put an enemy to sleep, if you don't have OoI. I freely admit this is personal preference, but I'd rather have something more deterministic than random.

3) You have to be able to take advantage of it. Against a single enemy, it's very powerful. In fact, that's a big part of why OoI got nerfed. If you put one creature to sleep out of seven or eight? Still good, but not as superior as it's made out to be.

I said that it has a roughly one in four chance (per creature) of PROVIDING an insta-kill, not performing one

Coup de Grace only has to breach Bloodied hits. My 3rd level Bard, hardly the fountain of damage, does 1d8+1d6+13 damage with his Echoing Songblade Scimitar on a CdG. Perhaps not an insta-kill, at that level, but the odds aren't bad. I would likely be better off to toss a Staggering Note at the opponent, though, and let a party member with better damage finish him off.

I would say that it's relatively useless, against a single opponent, especially if that opponent happens to be a Solo. You want maximum coverage, for maximum effect.

 

[The Human Target]

Its a pretty sick spell even if you aren't an orb wizard IMO.

That just takes it from sick to disgusting.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I would say that it's relatively useless, against a single opponent, especially if that opponent happens to be a Solo. You want maximum coverage, for maximum effect.

Eh, depriving the equivalent of 5 monsters of a couple actions is gold. Pretty much that's where it becomes crazy good. High level Solos vs an optimized lockdown orbizard, not pretty. Of course many solos have gotten better vs that kind of ploy, but it is still pretty nice. Bonus if you can clip a few minions or whatever.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I said that it has a roughly one in four chance (per creature) of PROVIDING an insta-kill, not performing one

I would say that it's relatively useless, against a single opponent, especially if that opponent happens to be a Solo. You want maximum coverage, for maximum effect.

My apologies, I misread. I shudder to think if my group's Ranger or Avenger was able to take advantage of that.

Eh, depriving the equivalent of 5 monsters of a couple actions is gold. Pretty much that's where it becomes crazy good.

I get that. My argument is that getting that effective five monster coverage is very situational, as I've already described. In my opinion, it's too situational to be useful. If you can actually put all five monsters to sleep (even with OoI, not likely), that's a great string of luck. However, I prefer something a little more reliable, especially for a daily power.

High level Solos vs an optimized lockdown orbizard, not pretty. Of course many solos have gotten better vs that kind of ploy, but it is still pretty nice. Bonus if you can clip a few minions or whatever.

Also a big reason why Orb of Imposition became limited to one saving throw.

 

[gjnave]

So i think the bottom line of this thread is that sleep is not that good, unless you create a build specifically around it - ie. an orb wizard, focusing on save hexes.