Sleep is the most worthless spell

[Dice4Hire]

So i think the bottom line of this thread is that sleep is not that good, unless you create a build specifically around it - ie. an orb wizard, focusing on save hexes.

That is my opinion, also.

 

[Ryujin]

So i think the bottom line of this thread is that sleep is not that good, unless you create a build specifically around it - ie. an orb wizard, focusing on save hexes.

It's still a very good spell, even without concentrating of the save debuffs. It just isn't the be-all, end-all of single target killing spells.

 

[Klaus]

So i think the bottom line of this thread is that sleep is not that good, unless you create a build specifically around it - ie. an orb wizard, focusing on save hexes.

Not by a long shot.

1 - Sleep is an Area burst 2 Spell, meaning you can target up to 25 creatures in it.
2 - It's an attack against Will, which is one of the lower defenses (AC and Fort are usually the highest).
3 - It automatically slows the targets (on a hit or a miss). Couple that with Sleep's 20-square range and you get quite a few rounds of actions before the enemy even closes in.
4 - Each of the targets has a 50% chance of failing the save. So basically, half of your targets will fall unconscious. Target 8 creatures, and suddenly you'll be facing only 4.

And not only Wizards, but any class that has "save ends" powers really should be looking for ways to impose save penalties. A simple Amulet of Elegy (a level 2 item) can impose a save penalty equal to its enhancement bonus against *all* targets of such a spell, once per day.

 

[gjnave]

OKay.. heres a build i worked on optimizing, that has Sleep hugely powerful by level 4.

Using an Elf:
Level 1 Feat: Elven Arcane Precision (use elven accuracy racial power to reroll against every target you choose)
Level 2 Feat: Wild Elf Luck (when using elven accuracy racial power, add 1d4 to reroll)
Level 4 Feat: Elven Precision (when using elven accuracy racial power add +2 to reroll)

So this basically means that you could get up to a +6 reroll to sleep any creatures you miss on the first attempt. Wow... Throw in an orb of impostion.. whew...

 

[Frankie1969]

So this basically means that you could get up to a +6 reroll to sleep any creatures you miss on the first attempt. Wow...

Those attack benefits don't apply to the save rolls. I'd rather use them to do damage.

1 - Sleep is an Area burst 2 Spell, meaning you can target up to 25 creatures in it.

If you're facing 12+ creatures most of them will be minions. Flaming Sphere.

I can see Sleep being usable for an orb wizard with save penalty boosters, but for anyone else it's weak sauce. The 4E save ends rule really wrecks some spells.

 

[The Human Target]

Not by a long shot.

1 - Sleep is an Area burst 2 Spell, meaning you can target up to 25 creatures in it.
2 - It's an attack against Will, which is one of the lower defenses (AC and Fort are usually the highest).
3 - It automatically slows the targets (on a hit or a miss). Couple that with Sleep's 20-square range and you get quite a few rounds of actions before the enemy even closes in.
4 - Each of the targets has a 50% chance of failing the save. So basically, half of your targets will fall unconscious. Target 8 creatures, and suddenly you'll be facing only 4.

And not only Wizards, but any class that has "save ends" powers really should be looking for ways to impose save penalties. A simple Amulet of Elegy (a level 2 item) can impose a save penalty equal to its enhancement bonus against *all* targets of such a spell, once per day.

Yup I agree.

 

[drothgery]

55% of the targets are still going to shrug it off immediately. I'd rather apply all that attack roll goodness to a damage burst.

Well, there's some merit in that, but why are you playing a controller in that case?

 

[gjnave]

Well.. even with 55% of enemis shugging off the effect... with a boss, or an elite, you get another chance at them with up to a +6... and then can use your orb of imposition. So your chances of knocking out a big guy is pretty darn good.

I've come to see the power of this spell, IF you build around it.

 

[Frankie1969]

I've come to see the power of this spell, IF you build around it.

True. I agree that one can build a wizard who loads up on save penalties to make Sleep (et al) work. But any other build (such as your reroll elf) is better off with damage + EONTs.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Well.. even with 55% of enemis shugging off the effect... with a boss, or an elite, you get another chance at them with up to a +6... and then can use your orb of imposition. So your chances of knocking out a big guy is pretty darn good.

As stated earlier, that +6 from Elven stuff applies to the attack roll, not the saves. Given that a miss on the attack roll negates any possibility of getting to unconscious, it's still valuable, but not in the way you are saying.