Sleep is the most worthless spell

[Prestidigitalis]

4 - Each of the targets has a 50% chance of failing the save. So basically, half of your targets will fall unconscious. Target 8 creatures, and suddenly you'll be facing only 4.

Each of the targets you hit has a 45% chance of failing the save. So basically, 22.5%* of your standard creature targets (including your allies in the burst) will fall unconsious. Target 8 creatures, and suddenly you'll be facing only 6.2.

* Assuming you hit 50% of the targets.

 

[gjnave]

As stated earlier, that +6 from Elven stuff applies to the attack roll, not the saves. Given that a miss on the attack roll negates any possibility of getting to unconscious, it's still valuable, but not in the way you are saying.

welll... with the orb of imposition, you could target that big boss, giving up to a -5 to saves by level 4 ( if you start your elf character with a Wisdom of 17 ) and have a pretty good chance of him failing.

Again... building around the spell

 

[gjnave]

--oops.. double post--

 

[Klaus]

Each of the targets you hit has a 45% chance of failing the save. So basically, 22.5%* of your standard creature targets (including your allies in the burst) will fall unconsious. Target 8 creatures, and suddenly you'll be facing only 6.2.

* Assuming you hit 50% of the targets.

By the usual math, you'll be hitting 75% of the targets. And those you miss are still slowed (save ends). Factor in a range of 20 squares and your ranged allies get at least two rounds of unimpeded shoot-the-duck.

 

[LightPhoenix]

By the usual math, you'll be hitting 75% of the targets. And those you miss are still slowed (save ends). Factor in a range of 20 squares and your ranged allies get at least two rounds of unimpeded shoot-the-duck.

Assuming that you:

1) Start at 20 squares away, and
2) Go early in the initiative order.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well.. even with 55% of enemis shugging off the effect... with a boss, or an elite, you get another chance at them with up to a +6... and then can use your orb of imposition. So your chances of knocking out a big guy is pretty darn good.

I've come to see the power of this spell, IF you build around it.

I think the reroll elf is a good concept. Wisdom is good for OoI and if you can get an item that also tosses on a save penalty and there's also a feat that actually still gives a penalty on ALL saves, not just the first (but it is a small penalty -2 IIRC). So maybe at level 6 pick up that feat (Spell Mastery IIRC isn't it?).

The nice thing about this is it is great not only for things like Sleep but it also benefits you in any situation where you want to hit badly, usually with a daily. With say an 18 Wis at level 6 you could be hitting with really high accuracy and imposing a -6 or so to saves. That gives you almost a 50/50 chance of putting a solo to sleep, which is pretty close to "I win". Doing some delaying tricks and whatnot can optimize the effect. With a group of several weaker enemies it is still pretty effective. At level 5 you can pick up Stinking Cloud or something like that (Visions of Avarice kicks butt too). The reroll stuff can be applied to that as well. It can even be used with various encounter spells in a pinch.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

By the usual math, you'll be hitting 75% of the targets. And those you miss are still slowed (save ends). Factor in a range of 20 squares and your ranged allies get at least two rounds of unimpeded shoot-the-duck.

Taking your 75% estimate, it's still 8 * .75 * .45 = 2.7 targets unconscious leaving 5.3 slowed (save ends). I never said it was a bad power -- just fixing the math according to my understanding of it.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't have an issue with powers being more useful for different builds. Heck, one of the things I wish they had done is the PHB1 is gone further with that.

.... In theory, Sleep should at least be in the same general ballpark as the other dailies independent of build. That is (IMO, of course) not the case, for the reasons I outlined.


.

I think your contradicting your self here. On the one hand you are fine that certain powers are powerful with a one build and not another. On the other, you complain that sleep is too weak if you are not an orb wizard.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just for a point of comparison:

sleep(level 1 wizard daily) vs knockout (level 9 rogue daily)

The rogue daily causes the unconscious (save ends) condition on one single target in melee range, and also allows the target to wake as soon as it takes damage. If you miss, it effectively does nothing.

 

[Ryujin]

Taking your 75% estimate, it's still 8 * .75 * .45 = 2.7 targets unconscious leaving 5.3 slowed until the end of their next turn. I never said it was a bad power -- just fixing the math according to my understanding of it.

Which means your ranged Striker(s) has had a round to pepper his target of preference, who may drop unconscious on top of that.