Sleeping in armor?

[jedrious]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but every Dark Sun adventure I've ever played in started with the PCs being slaves or getting enslaved, and losing everything.
Considering it was a "tougher than normal setting," that always seemed like overkill...

It's fun if handled properly, but as Cap states, it's not easy to balance encounters that way. I mean, your Wiz, Warlock and Rogue types are likely operating at full power and defense (or damn close to it!) while the Fighter, Paladin, Cleric and Warlock can attack at full force but have their defences COMPLETELY NEUTERED. Either throw creatures that have low "to hit" scores at them or do significantly less damage than a typical encounter that would be balanced.

Sending in Lurkers or Brutes might be big trouble.

If your players like that kind of challenge though, do it up. If they whine even once, never, ever pull that trick on them again. It's like ending a campaign with "...and you wake up, realizing it was all a dream."

I literally got my #@$ kicked for doing that. Literally. It was sore for days.

If the DM gets physically wounded for presenting even the slightest of challenge then the players aren't mature enough for the game anyway

 

[brehobit]

I'd point out that if you were going to have a *big* sleep/ambush thing you could just happen to have the ambush happen when the heavy armor guy is up and on watch...

For smaller encounters, hitting them when he/they are asleep might work well as an additional challenge.

Just saying.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Yes ValhallaGH, thanks very much!

You're welcome.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

If the DM gets physically wounded for presenting even the slightest of challenge then the players aren't mature enough for the game anyway

Let's do the numbers then, shall we? Let's say, level 16 Paragon characters. Those guys are pretty powerful and up for challenges, right?

Now, the Wizard (leather armor)/Rogue/Archer Ranger that have high DEX and INT (assuming 18 and pumping it up to 22 by 16th level) will have about a 24 AC assuming they were wearing nothing. If the Wizard never upgraded to leather, and instead wore Cloth, then we might be looking at something on the order of a +4 Feyweave (+1 AC) for a total of 29 AC.

Now, let's look at everyone else (ie- Fighter, Paladin, Warlord, etc...) For those that didn't invest in DEX at all, we're talking a straight 18 AC. That's 10+1/2 level, and that's it.

So, the spread in armor classes here is a 6, with a high of 11 for the Feyweave wearing Wizard.

Now, let's look at the monsters they might be fighting:

Savage Minotaur (16 Brute) - The Savage Minotaur hits at a +19 to AC. For the guys with no DEX, this means an auto-hit on anything other than a 1, since they only have 18 AC. So basically, they will be hit every single round unless that Minotaur whiffs on a 1. For a Brute, don't you think that's going to hurt a bit? Against that 24 AC though, he's hitting on a 5. Still really good, but at least there's a chance that he'll miss against them. The Wizard, with his 29 AC from the Feyweave, will likely be fine though. He'll get hit on a 10 or higher, which is about 55% of the time. That's not too bad considering that he's only wearing cloth armor and not a frontline PC.

Abyssal Ghoul (16 Skirmisher) - This guy is at a +21 versus AC. He'll hit the non-DEX PC's automatically on anything but a 1, and the DEX PC's on a 3. The Feyweave Wizard will get hit on an 8, which is pretty good, but this is a skirmisher and that's a melee attack. It should be pretty good against a cloth wearing Wizard.

Cyclops Hewer (16 Soldier) - As a soldier, he's got a pretty good to-hit. Namely, a +23 vs AC. That means that he hits everyone but the Feyweave Wizard on a 2 or better. So, send a couple of these guys in and good luck escaping from the encounter with your life.

Edit: Before someone says something, I just wanted to say that I'm aware that I didn't include examples of something like a Fighter with 14 DEX and such. I did this to make the examples a little easier. With the low end of no DEX mod and the high end of a +6 from a 22 DEX (the highest the majority of players would have, unless they actually took a 20 at character creation) I felt it was pretty easy to see what the range should look like. Plus, against that Cyclops Hewer, only a 24 DEX would actually get you anything, since otherwise he'll hit anything else on a 2 or better.

 

[timbannock]

Let's do the numbers then, shall we?

Ouch. Definitely a difference worth keeping in mind if you pull this trick.

 

[timbannock]

If the DM gets physically wounded for presenting even the slightest of challenge then the players aren't mature enough for the game anyway

We were in high school playing D&D in someone's parents' basement. We're probably just the right maturity for this game ;-P

Seriously though, it was a cop-out ending and they knew it. They punished me for it, and I've learned my lesson. You gotta know your players, and be receptive to their feedback. To be fair to the player who kicked me, I did say "bring it on," so who's the real idiot?



...Wow, this post makes me sound depressing. Really I'm just being self-deprecating. I swear!

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Ouch. Definitely a difference worth keeping in mind if you pull this trick.

Also, keep in mind that if you drop the enemy levels down to where they'd only be getting a +8 to hit (thus making them hit the non-DEX guys 50% of the time) then the high DEX guys will be much harder to hit (15 or higher) than the non-DEX guys. And that Feyweave Wizard? He'll be nigh unstoppable and can just run around spamming Thunderwave all day long with no fear of being hit (you would need a 21, therefore he can't be hit). Also, those guys with the +8 to hit? What would they be? Like 4th level? The players would slaughter them.

 

[scarik]

Realistically speaking you don't take your protective gear off when in a combat zone or disaster area.

You might take off your boots and gloves and helmet, but you leave your vest on.

In D&D terms the fighter prolly takes off his helmet, gauntlets and loosens his boots.

All stuff that can be fixed with 3 minor actions at most.

When you're out on a quest you just don't let yourself get comfortable or let down your guard all the way, plenty of time for sleeping naked when you're wenching back at the tavern.

 

[Prism]

Also, keep in mind that if you drop the enemy levels down to where they'd only be getting a +8 to hit (thus making them hit the non-DEX guys 50% of the time) then the high DEX guys will be much harder to hit (15 or higher) than the non-DEX guys. And that Feyweave Wizard? He'll be nigh unstoppable and can just run around spamming Thunderwave all day long with no fear of being hit (you would need a 21, therefore he can't be hit). Also, those guys with the +8 to hit? What would they be? Like 4th level? The players would slaughter them.

We played like this for years in 2 and 3e, with the super AC rogues unhittable along side the armourless fighter (at night) or wizard. 4e does do a decent job of balancing things out more fairly but is it really so different that it can't cope with 'unbalanced' fights. I certainly don't want all 4e fights to start to feel samey with this 50% hit idea. If you aren't optimized in one area then part of the fun is surely to compensate in another - in this case with temp hits, DR or healing. Surely the odd fight can cope with a situation where certain characters get hit every round

 

[Falstaff]

Does 4e have rules for sleeping in armor? If not, what do you all do?

For what it's worth, here's a cut and paste from my houserules handout:

Extended Rest, Sleeping & Waking, Keeping Watch, and Armor
On page 263 in the PH you can read the rules for each of these categories. Here are my added houserules:

Extended Rest and Sleeping
If, at the end of an extended rest, you haven’t slept at least 6 hours in the last 24, you gain no benefit from that extended rest and you’re Weakened. You must rest the required 6 hours to remove the Weakened condition and gain the benefits of an extended rest. Adventuring is tough business and you need your rest to be any good at it.

Keeping Watch
Unless you’re in the safety of an inn or some other similar situation, you’ll want to make sure you’ve set watches during an extended rest. Once the watch order is set, and if there’s an encounter planned, the DM will roll randomly to see who is on watch when the encounter begins. If you’re not on watch, you’re assumed to be sleeping – unless you’re not interested in gaining the benefits of an extended rest and don’t mind if you’re Weakened after the extended rest.

Armor
You can’t gain the benefits of sleeping during an extended rest if you try to sleep in Heavy Armor (this includes the Eladrin’s Trance ability). You can sleep in Light Armor (cloth, leather, and hide), but you just can’t sleep well enough in Heavy Armor (chainmail, scale mail, and plate) to get any really good rest.

If you are awakened to an attack by a roving dragon and all you have on are your skivvies and you want to quickly don your armor, you can, but at a cost. Donning armor under normal circumstances takes a short rest (five minutes). However, donning armor hastily, such as while a dragon is eating your pals and you’re hurrying to help but are too lily-livered to run and help without your armor on, can be done, but as stated above, at a price.

Donning armor hastily requires a number of moves actions equal to the armor’s armor bonus. So, for example, to hastily don a suit of scale armor would require 7 move actions, or something like 21 seconds, which is insanely fast, so I think I’m being overly generous. You have to don the entire suit of armor to gain the armor’s armor bonus. Make sure not to add any magical bonuses to the required time.

Hastily donned armor grants an armor bonus at -1.

If you are not proficient in the armor, you can’t don it hastily.

cheers