D&D 4E Slight Rant on 4E FR So Far and Where It May Go [SPOILERS]

Brian Compton

First Post
I flipped to the end of Grand History, and I'm a little disappointed at some of the things that have happened. No, not the stuff that's been hashed over time and again, but a few that have not been mentioned (ye've been warned of SPOILERS ahead, matees):

- The Drow, ALL OF A SUDDEN, can use High Magic, and they use it left and right to try and punk gods. And Kiaransalee of all people; she took on Orcus- and LIVED! So a few mages get together and, essentially, MAKE EVERYONE FORGET SHE EVER EXISTED! Uh-uh, no way. First, she's minor- why bother at all? Second, if this has been possible... WHY NOT TAKE OUT CORELLON?! They hate him more than anybody else. Or Elistraee for that matter. It's possible that, being a weak minor deity, she was susceptible in ways the others weren't, but High Magic is supposed to be able to do undefinable things- this would create definition. And why have the elves NEVER thought to do this to Lolth? Could be similar, but I still see plot holes here.

- Khelben's dead. Just dead. Sounds like he did something important, but there's no context for what he did or why. A little something for ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FR NPC'S EVER would have been nice.

- Of course, Azoun V starts moving towards democratic institutions RIGHT BEFORE THE RSE. Convenient, folks, very convenient. If the writers knew that all hell was going to break loose a year later, why did they bother to go into such detail about this? It would have made for an interesting plot line, but not so important when the whole world's going to...some bad plane, whatever it might be today.

- Do we really need an out-and-out god slaughter? Seems like it. Amazing how the last few times Mystra died, almost all the gods got out just fine, but THIS TIME they're dropping of left and right. The implication is that anybody not of Greater status is looking around furtively every Friday for the guys with the pink slips. Again, a lot of lore and flavor possibly gone in favor of streamlining with the new edition.

- What is up with the dragon thing? Dragon gods sending dream messages to their dragon followers to go and find the new dragon eggs that have fallen from the sky. Sounds like something out of Dragonlance, rather than FR.

Here are a few things I either foresee happening based on the evidence or would like to see happen:

- The Chosen give up their lives to empower a new Mystra, who heals the magical rift and institutes the new magic rules (at least the Seven Sisters could go out this way; I think you'd still want Elminster as the iconic figurehead).

- Lathander completes his transition to Aumanator, thus adding another creepy level to the Realms. Less frivolity, more rigidness. Also a good way to keep all those Lathanderite PC's from converting over.

- Elistraee heads up a much larger contingent of "good drow" who will become more acceptable as they become better known (didn't say it was a good idea, just that it will likely happen). Rumors of drow as a core PC race, combined with the consolidation of the pantheon, make think something like this happens.

- The "points of light" scenario kicks in, with many of the smaller regions being knocked out and only a few bastions of "light" remaining. My bets are on Cormyr, Waterdeep, some of the Dales, Myth Drannor, the Great Rift and/or Shannatar, and the Silver Marches being the key points, with everything else somehow being overrun by various kinds of evil (organizations, monsters, outsiders, etc.).

- With a century jump and a lot of chaos between now and then, a whole lot less retired adventurers hanging out everywhere. This will allow the PC's to be the problem solvers as before, but without the plot hole of 20 or so ex-adventuring warriors and mages in the same area who let the problem get bad in the first place without lifting a finger.

Rant off. What do you all think?
 

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Brian Compton said:
- Khelben's dead. Just dead. Sounds like he did something important, but there's no context for what he did or why. A little something for ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FR NPC'S EVER would have been nice.

I don't follow FR closely, but I recall seeing references to this being part of the Expedition to Undermountain (as well as another major FR NPC death).
 

Glyfair said:
I don't follow FR closely, but I recall seeing references to this being part of the Expedition to Undermountain (as well as another major FR NPC death).

It is late, but as I recall from another thread

SPOILER (Highlight for information.)

Khelben Arunsun and Halaster killed each other. Khelben is at peace, so he is not coming back.
 


Brian Compton said:
- The Drow, ALL OF A SUDDEN, can use High Magic, and they use it left and right to try and punk gods. And Kiaransalee of all people; she took on Orcus- and LIVED! So a few mages get together and, essentially, MAKE EVERYONE FORGET SHE EVER EXISTED! Uh-uh, no way. First, she's minor- why bother at all? Second, if this has been possible... WHY NOT TAKE OUT CORELLON?! They hate him more than anybody else. Or Elistraee for that matter. It's possible that, being a weak minor deity, she was susceptible in ways the others weren't, but High Magic is supposed to be able to do undefinable things- this would create definition. And why have the elves NEVER thought to do this to Lolth? Could be similar, but I still see plot holes here.

I have no problems about the High Magic part, but the part about a couple of epic spellcasters being able to destroy a deity just like that was beyond ridiculous. Talk about. Deus Ex Machina.

Especially because the elves could just go and erase the names of Lolth, Gruumsh, and all their pantheons from everyone's heads. Then some human wizards from Halruaa or the City of Shade pick that up and start destroying deities. The princes of shade would probably destroy all deities except Shar, and she'd proceed to destroy all creation, with no one in the way.

In fact, I'd prefer that to the stuff they're doing with 4e now: Just stop being a wuss and say that the Realms aren't profitable enough for Hasbro and start a new campaign setting.

- Khelben's dead. Just dead. Sounds like he did something important, but there's no context for what he did or why. A little something for ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FR NPC'S EVER would have been nice.

It's in the Blackstaff novel.

Spoiler ahead:

He sacrificed himself to cleanse the High Moor from the magical fallout it was subject to since it was corrupted during the Crown Wars. A new, and secret city has been magically erected in the moor, a beacon of civilisation for the goodly races to live in peace yada yada yada.

The book also tells us what the Sharn are, by the way

- Of course, Azoun V starts moving towards democratic institutions RIGHT BEFORE THE RSE. Convenient, folks, very convenient. If the writers knew that all hell was going to break loose a year later, why did they bother to go into such detail about this? It would have made for an interesting plot line, but not so important when the whole world's going to...some bad plane, whatever it might be today.

My guess is that Ed Greenwood had those plans, but then whatever madman or madmen decided to send the Realms to hell in a handbasked destroyed that.

- Do we really need an out-and-out god slaughter? Seems like it. Amazing how the last few times Mystra died, almost all the gods got out just fine, but THIS TIME they're dropping of left and right. The implication is that anybody not of Greater status is looking around furtively every Friday for the guys with the pink slips. Again, a lot of lore and flavor possibly gone in favor of streamlining with the new edition.

Agreed. Is I keep saying: The Realms are losing their identity. It seems that if you read the 4e FRCS, you could just replace a couple of place names and have GreyHawk 4e, or World of Warcraft 4e, or Any Other Standard Fantasy Setting 4e.

What is up with the dragon thing? Dragon gods sending dream messages to their dragon followers to go and find the new dragon eggs that have fallen from the sky. Sounds like something out of Dragonlance, rather than FR.

That one's an aftermath of the Year of Rogue Dragons events, if I recall correctly.


- The Chosen give up their lives to empower a new Mystra, who heals the magical rift and institutes the new magic rules (at least the Seven Sisters could go out this way; I think you'd still want Elminster as the iconic figurehead).

I tell you if I were the being scheduled to become the new Mystra, I'd decline. The first one to hold the post (well, actually Mystryl) had untold millenia on the job. The second several centuries. The last one several years. The next is likely to be killed within the next three or four episodes of the telenovela the Realms turn into.

- Lathander completes his transition to Aumanator, thus adding another creepy level to the Realms. Less frivolity, more rigidness. Also a good way to keep all those Lathanderite PC's from converting over.

Quite likely: A god of mornings and beginnings is uncommon as fantasy worlds go. A sungod is so much more popular, so the Realms musn't have a dawngod, but a sungod.

- Elistraee heads up a much larger contingent of "good drow" who will become more acceptable as they become better known (didn't say it was a good idea, just that it will likely happen). Rumors of drow as a core PC race, combined with the consolidation of the pantheon, make think something like this happens.

I actually think that in Ascendancy of the Last (the third novel in the series that described the wholesale slaughter of all the drow deities, and made a really bad job at it. Deus Ex Machina all around), Eilistraee kills Ghaunadaur and Lolth (in some really contrived manner. Or maybe Ao just pops in, kills Lolth, does a cartwheel, and disappears) and Eilistraee becomes the sole deity of drow, which lose their light blindness, their attraction to the underdark (that part is hinted at in Storm of the Dead, the second book in that trilogy), and become basically blackskinned elves that like to dance nude in the forest and something. Eilistraee, having taken over all the other portfolios, becomes the Goddess of Drow and Blandness.


The "points of light" scenario kicks in, with many of the smaller regions being knocked out and only a few bastions of "light" remaining. My bets are on Cormyr, Waterdeep, some of the Dales, Myth Drannor, the Great Rift and/or Shannatar, and the Silver Marches being the key points, with everything else somehow being overrun by various kinds of evil (organizations, monsters, outsiders, etc.).

The most dangerous of the monsters being the dreaded Foree.


With a century jump and a lot of chaos between now and then, a whole lot less retired adventurers hanging out everywhere. This will allow the PC's to be the problem solvers as before, but without the plot hole of 20 or so ex-adventuring warriors and mages in the same area who let the problem get bad in the first place without lifting a finger.

Quite likely.

Bottom line:
Drow are just like other elves.
All the grand history of the Realms has become meaningless. All but a handfull of locations are wiped out
Magic is cast using mana.
Only a handfull of gods.
Most of the heroes from the old novels (except maybe a couple) will be dead and forgotten.
There will be no NPCs of level 10 or so and above. The heroes will be the first to reach that lofty goal (except, of course, the BBEG, who got their first, but somehow doesn't use that advantage to make sure that every potential hero is dealt with at once so no one can ever challenge him), meaning that if they want to take over a couple of kingdoms, no one can stop them.


In other words: The only thing that sets the Realms apart from every other 4e setting and most other fantasy settings will be the name. And that will also be the only thing the 4e FR will have in common with the old FR.
 

Oh, I forgot something: I'm sure the spellplague will kill off every race that isn't described in the 4e PHB. So if gnomes aren't in the 4e PHB, the Spellplague will probably have the side effect of killing them all. And some kobold sorcerers will probably use high magic to erase the names of all gnome deities from people's minds.

It will also change sun elves into eladrins.
 

Kae'Yoss said:
In other words: The only thing that sets the Realms apart from every other 4e setting and most other fantasy settings will be the name. And that will also be the only thing the 4e FR will have in common with the old FR.

This is the problem I have with the changes in FR. They seem to be making it like Eberron. I liked the idea that PCs were the first to get to higher levels in Eberron. BUT that was a new setting. The history was not there. I don't mind changes being made to the Realms and time jumps and all of that, but a LIGHT touch would be more favorable to a heavy handed one.
 

They killed Halaster? He was so cool in "the Fall of Myth Drannor"... boo!

And can someone confirm what happened with Eilistraee? She should have been one of the deities on the chopping block. Mystra can remain dead... a personable deity of magic was a bad idea from the beginning.
 
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I suppose all the changes they are making are aimed at folks like me. I follow Greyhawk (by virtue of Living Greyhawk) and I use Eberron in my home games-but I never really got in to FR outside of Salvatore's work.

From a gaming perspective I saw it as being rife with overpowered NPCs (a common complaint as far as I can tell) and bloated with deities. I had absolutely no desire to use it. I remember liking it way back in my AD&D days, it just got away from me.

BLUF-These changes have me interested in playing Living FR and checking out the 4e FRCS.

I understand how this would upset someone who follows the setting closely, but I don't think it'l necessarily turn it in to some bland fantasy mush.
 

Kae'Yoss said:
Agreed. Is I keep saying: The Realms are losing their identity. It seems that if you read the 4e FRCS, you could just replace a couple of place names and have GreyHawk 4e, or World of Warcraft 4e, or Any Other Standard Fantasy Setting 4e.
:confused: You already have the 4e FRCS?
 

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