D&D 4E Slight Rant on 4E FR So Far and Where It May Go [SPOILERS]

20 or 30 good people with that much power is a large overestimate. Regardless, the majority of those truly mighty characters have nations, cities and large organisations to administer. Alustriel has the Silver Marches, which takes up all her time. The Simbul rules Aglarond.. most of the time.

However, if I have the ability to predict the future, travel instantly anywhere in the world, have a network of spies and information gathering in almost every major city in the world and the support of a god(or 15) who are extremely powerful and know most things, then I'm likely going to know where and when important things happen.

Indeed. As will these lot. Manshoon, Fzoul, Szass Tam, Aznar Thrul, Druxus Rhym, Lallara, Lauzoril, Mythrellaa, Nevron, Yaphyll (The other seven Zulkir's.). The 12 Princes of Shade. Telamont. The Faceless. Sammaster. Halaster Blackcloak. Arklem Gleem of the Arcane Brotherhood. Countess Sarya Dlardrageth. Tordynnar Rhaevaren of the Eldreth Veluuthra. Slarkrethel of the Kraken Society. The Five Malalugryms, Arathluth, Luthbyr, Luthvaerynn, Taltuth and Zarasluth. Jymahna of the Twisted Rune. And, of course, Larloch. All high level and very powerful arcanists, all mentioned in Lords of Darkness. Of course, most of them don't go off gallivanting around the Realms due to the same reasons. They have nations, cities and large organisations to adminster. This is all, as I mentioned before, explained in the Concerns of the Mighty sidebar in the FRCS.
 

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Uzzy said:
Indeed. As will these lot. Manshoon, Fzoul, Szass Tam, Aznar Thrul, Druxus Rhym, Lallara, Lauzoril, Mythrellaa, Nevron, Yaphyll (The other seven Zulkir's.). The 12 Princes of Shade. Telamont. The Faceless. Sammaster. Halaster Blackcloak. Arklem Gleem of the Arcane Brotherhood. Countess Sarya Dlardrageth. Tordynnar Rhaevaren of the Eldreth Veluuthra. Slarkrethel of the Kraken Society. The Five Malalugryms, Arathluth, Luthbyr, Luthvaerynn, Taltuth and Zarasluth. Jymahna of the Twisted Rune. And, of course, Larloch. All high level and very powerful arcanists, all mentioned in Lords of Darkness. Of course, most of them don't go off gallivanting around the Realms due to the same reasons. They have nations, cities and large organisations to adminster. This is all, as I mentioned before, explained in the Concerns of the Mighty sidebar in the FRCS.

Most of these cannot match the Chosen in terms of intelligence, sanity, organizational capacity, information gathering capacity or even raw power.

Halaster is insane (or was for most of the life of the FR setting) and rarely leaves his lair. Sammaster - head of the Cult of the Dragon - a whole cult of loonies. The twelve Princes of Shade are only barely superpowered; they could only beat the Chosen on their home ground.

Storm Silverhand beat a Malaugrym (who had a bit of Bane's essence) and she's possibly the least powerful of the Chosen. Of course, her ability to take her silver fire and create a nearly impenetrable dome over an entire castle gave her kind of an edge. Storm's spells are more powerful, Chosen template or not.

If those villains are to be considered dangerous, they need to at least show up in novels more often; and the Chosen don't need a new overpowered will-literally-never-appear-in-the-game ability every book. (I don't think it's a good idea to crank up the villains' powers to match the Storm's little ability.)
 
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1) Assuming that, of the 20, half of these are tied to Mystra (the Sisters, Elminster, Khelben, the Magister), there are threats that they aren't aloud to address because they deal with the evolution of magic. In fact, not only can they stop such threats, they may have to prevent others from doing so. So, only 10 left.

2) As is often mentioned, Ed and and a close few who work on the Realms know some things that haven't been revealed yet, or have been revealed in passing. Likely, certain political motivations prevent some NPC's from acting in certain situations (e.g. Elminster freeing slaves from Zhentil Keep en masse causes Fzoul to attack Shadowdale).

3) Just because one can do something doesn't mean it's the best idea. Sure, Khelben could fix many problems in Waterdeep, both with his resources and astounding intellect. But then, would anyone else in Waterdeep step up to try to deal with problems? Call it the "Superman Syndrome"- what need is there for mere mortals to problem solve when they have superior minds to do so for them?

Such is also the path for good folk to become tyrants, or nutjobs... or both.

BTW, for those who argue that the Chosen are more sane than their enemies- Ed has been saying for years that Elminster has been tottering on the edge of sanity (centuries of watching friends come and go, and humanity seemingly not getting any wiser and doing the same stupid things over and over again, can do that).
 

Brian Compton said:
1) Assuming that, of the 20, half of these are tied to Mystra (the Sisters, Elminster, Khelben, the Magister), there are threats that they aren't aloud to address because they deal with the evolution of magic.

That's why I'm glad Mystra is dead. "The goddess of magic says sit now." I think that's a poorly designed plot device.

2) As is often mentioned, Ed and and a close few who work on the Realms know some things that haven't been revealed yet, or have been revealed in passing.

Nice of them to let DMs know that.

Likely, certain political motivations prevent some NPC's from acting in certain situations (e.g. Elminster freeing slaves from Zhentil Keep en masse causes Fzoul to attack Shadowdale).

Elminster, as a powerful top-level hero, isn't likely going to deal with slave freeing... he's going to save the world from "the RSE of the week". I don't think Fzoul and his Zhents are all that dangerous, either, and it would be worthy goal to try to beat them and free the slaves too. Since Elminster and company can tell if a single slave-trader is sneaking into Shadowdale, I don't see why this is beyond him. Since the Simbul can single-handedly slaughter armies by herself, I don't think that's beyond Elminster either... and I'm sure he's smart enough to wear a magical and mundane disguise, with his genius brainpower and all; with all the abjurations and author-devised spells he has on him, even magical investigation won't tell Fzoul whodunit. He can do it in the novels, so who cares if it breaks the rules of the game, or for that matter, believability? In any event, I think the novels show the villains as so ineffective that the Chosen can easily handle them, and the adventures are often poorly written (save the world ... from Kiaransalee!) that there's little reason for the Chosen not to get involved. If the setting doesn't need a revamp, it needs to toss out boatloads of novels and several adventures, too, which is one reason why people complain about the novels being canon. Alternatively, they could kill Mystra and put out slightly more reasonable villains who aren't going to blow up the setting without Mystra's guardians trying to hold them down. When villains are capable of doing something like that, it's a grand adventure. It shouldn't be happening all the time. Villains often rely on McGuffins... why didn't you do this last week? Oh, right, was studying the McGuffin. Etc. Maybe that's a poor writing device, but I still think it's better than Mystra.

I like to compare FR to Dark Sun sometimes. Why didn't anyone kill Borys the Dragon? Because no one could! Borys putting a pall of evil over the setting (he demanded 1000 slaves from the seven cities every year) was, well, a big part of the setting. The heroes can strive to eventually topple him (unless some novel series comes along, gives a hero a ridiculously uber-overpowered artifact and lets him kill Borys... wait, that's exactly what did happen). That wouldn't really work out if there was an equally powerful set of good-aligned uber-heroes holding him down. (And note, Borys did not control the world, just the area around seven cities.)

Eberron has many similarities, except the villains are generally more reasonable in terms of power. Some of the most powerful inhuman villains are often "sealed in the earth" and can only work through intermediaries... until the McGuffin releases one when the heroes are high level. I don't think the 8th-level heroes are going to be perturbed when, five years ago, a bunch of high-level heroes came out of retirement to deal with the last one that got out. It's not happening every year or anything like that.

Other villains start at a far more reasonable level (eg the Lord of Blades starts out at 12th-level) and gain levels over time (they're adventuring too). Even if the PCs can't deal with the problem, it isn't necessary for some uber-heroes to overkill the situation, as the LoB isn't about to blow up Eberron as a 12th-level character without any world-shattering artifacts.

3) Just because one can do something doesn't mean it's the best idea. Sure, Khelben could fix many problems in Waterdeep, both with his resources and astounding intellect. But then, would anyone else in Waterdeep step up to try to deal with problems?

Ding ding ding!

Call it the "Superman Syndrome"- what need is there for mere mortals to problem solve when they have superior minds to do so for them?

We have a winner! Fortunately, there's only one Superman. There's ... eight living Chosen of Mystra, plus a host of other very powerful good-aligned characters.

Such is also the path for good folk to become tyrants, or nutjobs... or both.

Ummm... sure. Actually, Khelben did seem a bit tyrannical, actually, but that's probably just his public persona.

BTW, for those who argue that the Chosen are more sane than their enemies- Ed has been saying for years that Elminster has been tottering on the edge of sanity (centuries of watching friends come and go, and humanity seemingly not getting any wiser and doing the same stupid things over and over again, can do that).

There are nine Chosen of Mystra, eight of whom are alive. (I heard there's a lot more; I'll chalk that up to rumor.) Elminster is going slightly senile, one is dead, and the Simbul is visibly mad. Fortunately, even the weaker ones are perfectly sane and enormously powerful; they can at least match a Malaugrym that contains the essence of Bane.

Long story short; years of bad novels have really hurt the setting. The uber-heroes are far more powerful than the setting or rules can support (due far more to novels than to their amazingly weak stat blocks). Short of depowering these characters or tossing out many novels (I think the latter would spark a fan revolt), I think they need to be erased and let some new heroes do things for a change.
 

Alisair Longreach said:
Khelben didn't die figting Halaster. Read the novel Blackstaff by Steven Schend about the last days of Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun.


For us that dont really want to read the novel, the short version?

And can elminster please die already?
 

I definitely like the 3.0 Realms, but I understand that the reason is simply because it's the only edition of FR which I have played. It seems to me that as a whole (throughout editions) the FR is a setting that really sucks. Having incredibly large-scale cosmic events like a pantheon remix a few times in the history of a world is ok, but having them every few years IN-GAME is ridiculous. Having such changes just to justify a change in the ruleset is ridiculous squared, and an insult to suspension of disbelief. I am sure that each edition of FR is well done within itself, but I will never port an existing campaign throughout different editions.
 

I will just pick and choose what to use in my FR campaign. I will not make the time jump, I'd be stupid to give up the history of 3 earlier campaigns that shaped my realms, especially since I did not use most of the changes in the 3E realms (My King Azoun IV is still alive, for one.)

There's always some nugget that makes me go "oh, yeah, good idea!", but I'll usually adpat it to my current campaign, never taking it as written.
 


Brian Compton said:
3) Just because one can do something doesn't mean it's the best idea. Sure, Khelben could fix many problems in Waterdeep, both with his resources and astounding intellect. But then, would anyone else in Waterdeep step up to try to deal with problems? Call it the "Superman Syndrome"- what need is there for mere mortals to problem solve when they have superior minds to do so for them?

Such is also the path for good folk to become tyrants, or nutjobs... or both.

ARGHHHHHHHH! It's a copout for Superman and its a copout here. Doesn't having the capability to deal with something give you a moral responsibility to do so, rather than sitting back and saying "oh no, that's within the abilities of mortals to do old boy, so they can deal with it"?

FRealms needs The Authority too it would seem. ;)
 
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(Psi)SeveredHead said:
Fortunately, even the weaker ones are perfectly sane
Untrue. As long made clear by Ed Greenwood, none of the Chosen are sane.

Long story short; years of bad novels have really hurt the setting. The uber-heroes are far more powerful than the setting or rules can support (due far more to novels than to their amazingly weak stat blocks).
But I am totally with you here. The novels have always hurt the FR game setting, and they always will. What a horrid, horrid mess those novels (most written by amazing incompetents) made.

or tossing out many novels (I think the latter would spark a fan revolt)
This fan (closer to erstwhile fan) would cheer heartily. FR novels = "teh suck".
 

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