D&D 4E Slight Rant on 4E FR So Far and Where It May Go [SPOILERS]

[Uzzy]

I wouldn't object to Novels being taken out of canon, nor would I really object to them staying in. If you don't like them, don't buy them. What I do think is annoying is how the changes they make in novels are not clarified and explained in supplements. I'd love a Volo's Guide type affair at the end of every year that gives an update on the situation in the Realms, just so we don't have to wade through many, many novels!

That's why I'm glad Mystra is dead. "The goddess of magic says sit now." I think that's a poorly designed plot device.

Firstly, Mystra asks the chosen to do things. She can't tell them. They do have Free Will. Infact, they follow Mystra's advice because they trust her judgement and wisdom. Secondly, what's wrong with divine servants obeying the dictates of their gods?

There's ... eight living Chosen of Mystra, plus a host of other very powerful good-aligned characters.

Actually, we have Alassra Silverhand known as The Simbul, Alvaerele Tasundrym known as The Silent Chosen of Mystra, Alustriel Silverhand, Dove Falconhand, Elminster Aumar, the Sage of Shadowdale, Embrae Alevan of Ardeep (deceased), Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun the Lord Mage of Waterdeep (deceased), Laeral Silverhand, Nadrathen, the Rebel Chosen (Deceased, according to Steven Schend), Sammaster (ExChosen) (Deceased), Storm Silverhand, Syluné Witch of Shadowdale (deceased), Symrustar Auglamyr (Deceased, according to Steven Schend), The Srinshee and Qilué Veladorn. That's 14. 5 of whom are dead as of 1375 DR. Laeral's pregnant, the Srinshee is still recovering, the Simbul's CN and Elminster's gravely wounded. That leaves 5. Out of that number, Dove and Storm are busy in Myth Drannor, leading the KoMD in the defence of the city. Alustriel is busy ruling the Silver Marches and Qilue is likewise leading the entire Eilistraeen faith. (There's a great scene of her in Sacrifice of the Widow using scrying bowls and other magics to command her forces to many parts of Faerún). Which really leaves Alvaerele, the Silent Chosen as a free, Good agent. What other good aligned characters were you referring to though?

And yes, many of those evil characters I listed are not quite as powerful as the Chosen. But they didn't get to their positions by being stupid! For the most part, they are careful and meticulous, and couldn't easily be beaten by a Teleporting Elminster!

Speaking of Superman, here's a good quote.

"It is a remarkable dichotomy. In many ways, Clark is the most human of us all. Then...he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him."

If Elminster and the other goodies decided to go across Faerún and destroy all the 'bad guys', burn Zhentil Keep, Hillsfar and other places of evil to the ground, crush all opposition, installing rulers who will 'help' the populace, preventing anyone else from speaking out against them... what would that make them?

 

[The Little Raven]

If Elminster and the other goodies decided to go across Faerún and destroy all the 'bad guys', burn Zhentil Keep, Hillsfar and other places of evil to the ground, crush all opposition, installing rulers who will 'help' the populace, preventing anyone else from speaking out against them... what would that make them?

Well, in Elminster's case, he has done that before (except the suppression of dissent). Making of a Mage shows you how such acts can be done without the character losing what makes him a moral person.

 

[Uzzy]

I've never actually read Making of a Mage. It's rather hard to get, as I'm sure you can understand. Can't really give a response to that till I get the Annotated Elminster later this year, so if you could perhaps give me an overview of what happens, that would be great!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

...and Elminster's gravely wounded.

Does he not know any divine casters who can cast Heal or Greater Restoration?

Brad

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Does he not know any divine casters who can cast Heal or Greater Restoration?

Yes, but they're all married to beautiful women, and thus don't want him near the house.

The others were priests of Mystra, and their goddess died.

 

[GreatLemur]

- What is up with the dragon thing? Dragon gods sending dream messages to their dragon followers to go and find the new dragon eggs that have fallen from the sky. Sounds like something out of Dragonlance, rather than FR.

I think you meant Dragonball.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wouldn't object to Novels being taken out of canon, nor would I really object to them staying in. If you don't like them, don't buy them.

They explain and dictate many of the events that appear in the setting. Did Azoun die first in a novel, or in FRCS? I'm thinking the former.

Firstly, Mystra asks the chosen to do things. She can't tell them. They do have Free Will.

She's their leader. She doesn't need to use mind control.

Infact, they follow Mystra's advice because they trust her judgement and wisdom. Secondly, what's wrong with divine servants obeying the dictates of their gods?

There are generally two groups of divine servants - clerics and outsiders. The first walk the earth with a reasonable amount of power, the second almost never do (being stuck on another plane most of the time). Anything else (Chosen, proxies, avatars - which aren't stricly servants, etc) are strictly limited in number and influence ... except the Chosen. But probably more to the point, none of the other deities have this much direct influence on the setting. Off-hand, I can't recall any deity other than Mystra who has even more than one Chosen. Bane's sole known Chosen, Fzoul Chembryl (and if you can name more than one, I'd like to see you name nine) is just that ... one. Most other deities don't even have any that have been introduced to the setting.

And yes, many of those evil characters I listed are not quite as powerful as the Chosen. But they didn't get to their positions by being stupid! For the most part, they are careful and meticulous, and couldn't easily be beaten by a Teleporting Elminster!

They're always going to lose to the Chosen, due to their Mary Sue status. The Chosen nearly always win, and it requires overwhelming force to defeat them. Okay, that's in the novels only, but that's a big part of the setting.

Okay, fine. Maybe the problems are the novels, but they are impinging negatively on the setting. Short of tossing them all out (that's not going to happen because they're canon) WotC can fix the bad parts of the setting. (And yes, that means killing Mystra. That fixes the problem of the Mary Sue overpowered overnumbered Chosen right off the bat.)

By the way, can someone explain to me why Greenwood says the Chosen are insane when the vast majority of them don't act that way in the very novels he writes? If they're nuts, they still seem pretty functional to me, compared to Sammaster or (most of the time) Halaster. Only Elminster (senile and PTSD) and the Simbul seemed to be nutty to me.

If Elminster and the other goodies decided to go across Faerún and destroy all the 'bad guys', burn Zhentil Keep, Hillsfar and other places of evil to the ground, crush all opposition, installing rulers who will 'help' the populace, preventing anyone else from speaking out against them... what would that make them?

That would make them the UN? Actually, who said anything about them installing new rulers? I think the necessity of keeping them around so they can save Faerun from the Weave Tearing Event of the (insert too-short time period here) is more damaging to the setting than whether they can take on the Zhents. The setting can get new more competent villains, provided there's some kind of time jump to explain why no one ever heard of before (they were establishing positions of power, gaining levels, etc), although the villains aren't going to be realistic if they can actually match the Chosen ... the Chosen still need their depowering.

 

[GVDammerung]

Forgotten Realms was already the "generic setting that snatches anything it can from other settings." It's pantheon is composed of deities taken from various mythologies (Tyr, renamed Heimdall as Helm, Mulhorandi, etc.) and D&D settings (Corellon, Lolth, etc). When 3rd edition came, it got worse, because it noticed that Dragonlance wasn't on the agenda, so it stole tinker gnomes, then when it saw Planescape was in it's grave still, it took on the Planetouched as suddenly a big part of the Realms.

And then there's been the biggest problem in the Realms, which stems from the oldest incarnation of the setting: Why the hell should I go out and risk my neck when there are least a dozen good organizations full of meddlesome, high-level uber-NPCs to save the world?



God forbid they take away the stupidest aspect of the setting: you can't walk a mile without finding some high-level CG NPC that works with Elminster and the Harpers to save the world.



The only thing that set the Realms apart was it's penchant for stealing things from other settings. The Realms has always been Blandville because it never actually had a solid identity of it's own, since it's premise was basically "You can put anything from anywhere in this world." Drizzt is actually the most unique thing to come out of the setting, while Ed's favored wizardly NPCs are mainly just Gandalf (Elminster, Khelben) recolored.

Gandolf, yeah, with one of those 4 hour erections they warn you about in those Viagra ads on TV. All of the blood in Elminster's body has rushed from his head to his . . . and he's only got one thing left on his mind. Elminster isn't just generic; he's geriatric and suffers from priapism. Elminster is a bad sterotype of the know it all wizard combined with the horn dog teenager, except he's older than dirt with more wrinkles that a sharpei puppy. Elminster as FR's iconic figure? Sure. Elminster is horny and FR just got . . .

 

[Uzzy]

Does he not know any divine casters who can cast Heal or Greater Restoration?

Brad

Probably. But the exact details of Elminster's status haven't been made clear. All Shadowdale says is that 'Gravely Wounded, he was whisked away by his contingency spells - and his tower itself was blasted into ruin and hurled into some far plane.' If you have a direct line to Eric Boyd, feel free to ask him for more information!

They explain and dictate many of the events that appear in the setting. Did Azoun die first in a novel, or in FRCS? I'm thinking the former.

Indeed they do. I, personally, have no problem with that, but I've got plenty of free time travelling on public transport, and it's nice to have an easy novel to read. Others do. I don't believe that all major events in the Realms should be done in novels. A set of adventures that are set during a major event would be nice. Besides, Greenwood wrote Death of the Dragon.

She's their leader. She doesn't need to use mind control.

That's not the point. The Chosen have the right to refuse to do something Mystra tells them to do. Two even rebelled against her (Sammaster and Nadrathen).

Off-hand, I can't recall any deity other than Mystra who has even more than one Chosen. Bane's sole known Chosen, Fzoul Chembryl (and if you can name more than one, I'd like to see you name nine) is just that ... one. Most other deities don't even have any that have been introduced to the setting.

Some other Deities have more then one Chosen. But that's not the point, really. Mystra's Chosen are a special case, for the following possible reasons (I say possible because the Seven Sisters sourcebook gives all many different theories as to why). Some say that Mystra's power must be rooted in mortals. Others believe she was ordered to lessen her own power by Ao. To minimise the destruction this divestment would visit on the Realms she decided to apportion it out to mortals, rather then letting the power be goine for good, weakening magic on Toril, or letting it be given to other divine beings, who might misuse it. Another theory is that Mystra foresaw the Time of Troubles and wanted to make things as easy as possible for any successor. The point is that Mystra's Chosen have a reason for existing beyond being very powerful.

Now, I've no problem with other Deities having powerful servants. It actually makes sense to me! But I'd prefer it if they were referred to as Divine Champions, or something of that nature.

They're always going to lose to the Chosen, due to their Mary Sue status.

How many fantasy novels have you read where the bad guys win? Not many cases of that, particularly in the Realms. During TSR's ownership of the setting, they had certain guidelines, one of which was not to show evil in too 'good' a light. So no competency, no victories for evil etc.

By the way, can someone explain to me why Greenwood says the Chosen are insane when the vast majority of them don't act that way in the very novels he writes?

I think insane is too strong a word, particularly in the way we would define it. Living for so long and having constant interference by gods and godly powers is bound to cause some damage to the mental state of people.

Actually, who said anything about them installing new rulers?

I did. Someone's going to have to rule over those people, right? I mean, Elminster and the gang have just gone and destroyed all forms of evil governments in my theoretical scenario.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Besides, Greenwood wrote Death of the Dragon.

I wasn't complaining about the novel, just pointing out that important events happen in novels.

Some other Deities have more then one Chosen. But that's not the point, really. Mystra's Chosen are a special case, for the following possible reasons (I say possible because the Seven Sisters sourcebook gives all many different theories as to why). Some say that Mystra's power must be rooted in mortals. Others believe she was ordered to lessen her own power by Ao. To minimise the destruction this divestment would visit on the Realms she decided to apportion it out to mortals, rather then letting the power be goine for good, weakening magic on Toril, or letting it be given to other divine beings, who might misuse it. Another theory is that Mystra foresaw the Time of Troubles and wanted to make things as easy as possible for any successor. The point is that Mystra's Chosen have a reason for existing beyond being very powerful.

Okay. I just think she's been way too spotlighted, and I don't think forcing her to give up power to Chosen who can then actively meddle in the setting was a good idea by the authors/TSR/whoever came up with the idea. With her dead, that goes out the window.

How many fantasy novels have you read where the bad guys win? Not many cases of that, particularly in the Realms. During TSR's ownership of the setting, they had certain guidelines, one of which was not to show evil in too 'good' a light. So no competency, no victories for evil etc.

This still impacts the setting (yeah, I knew that "TSR wants weak villains" reason, too), but many of those villains are still around, in positions of power. Giving the timeline a jump gives room to put better villains into the setting. However, the Chosen still need to be depowered, or the new villains will still always be horribly outclassed.

I did. Someone's going to have to rule over those people, right? I mean, Elminster and the gang have just gone and destroyed all forms of evil governments in my theoretical scenario.

Let the people do it. No, really. There's bound to be (new) village councils or local scions of nobles to take over. I think reconstruction is often assumed when it isn't necessary.