Slim down the core rules *how to remove AoO's?*

[Grayhawk]

This thread didn't generate the traffic I was hoping for. I believe the reason is that most are happy with the RAW, and out of those inclined to change stuff (like myself), very few seem to agree on exactly what should be changed.

So I'll try a new approach. Instead of making changes like the ones I proposed in that thread, how about trying to simplify the RAW exclusively by removing stuff?

Maybe this way it'll be easier to agree on what's clunky and what's not.

Take AoO's for instance. For those of you who have already removed them, how does that work for you?

Edit: Edited the title to more accurately reflect on the threads' content

 

[Kae'Yoss]

A couple of things you can use to make d20 simpler (note, not every character will be creatable with that):

Get rid of multiclassing - or have only a simple version: dual-classed. If you are dual-classed, you get the the average amount of skill points and have to multiclass by alternating classes (Ftr1, Ftr1/Rog1, Ftr2/Rog1, Ftr2/Rog2 and so on)

Get rid of skill ranks and class skill lists. You just choose X+Int skills (x is 2 for fighters, 8 for rogues and so on) with humans getting an additional skill. With these skills, you get your level as a bonus on the check. (A dual-classed fighter/rogue would get 5+Int Skills)

No PrC's, of course

AoO's: Use the mechanic from the Miniatures game: There is no limit on AoO's per round (so combat reflexes is irrelevant). Casting spells or using ranged weapons cannot be done when you are threatened. Combatants with reach only threaten adjacent fields.

Melee Reach: No more "can't attack adjacent foes"

No 5-foot-steps.

Only basic magic items, if any. That is: There are Weapons and Armors +1, +2, +3, +4, +5, but no Vorpal Axe or something.

Simplify combat maneuvers: Just an opposed attack roll, no AoO.

No readied actions.

 

[Razz0putin]

the biggest tricky rule as I see it is AoO. has anyone looked at a toned down mutants and masterminds since that's how they do it. No AoO to be found.

 

[gpetruc]

Unlimited AoO + No spellcasting in threatened zone + No 5ft step ...
... I would never dare to play a spellcaster.
Once a foe has you in his melee range.

Actually I don't see the problem in 5ft steps if combat is done with miniatures on a grid ... it's just "if you make a only a little step you're not hurt".

Of course AoO, expecially when someone has 10ft reach or more, are a complication to the rules. But this is mostly because there are things that provoke AoO and things that don't ...
Simply rule "AoO everytime you do any action that is not a melee attack, or when you move out of a threatened square (except for the 5ft step)" it could be probably simple enough.
If you want to trash them all just use a rule similar to LotR miniatures:
1) If you enter a threatened square your have to stop moving for that turn
2) If you start your move in a threatened square you can move out of it as if it wasn't threatened
3) Inside a threatened square the only thing you can do is a melee attack (or similar)
Simple, isn't it ? Anyway there could be problems with reaches > 5ft.

For everything else I agree with KaeYoss.
You could also group skills together ... for example "Perception" could be a skill that costs like 2 and gives you Spot and Listen (so you don't have to decide what to use). Similar for Hide + Move Silently, or Spellcraft + Knowledge (Arcana) ...
And of course you can trash some skills and just make them level checks
You could simply get all skills in packs with nearly the same cost and use them instead of skills
- Thievery (Disable Device, Open Lock)
- Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Sense Motive and all honest social skills)
- Bluffery (Bluff, Gather Info & similar "non that honest" social skills)
- Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swimm)
- Arcane (Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana + Planes)
- Nature (Knowledge Nature, Handle Animal, Survival, ...)
- Academics (Knowledge: anything else)
...
I tried to do the same for a draft of a simplified d6 version of D&D (change d20 -> d6 and halve all numbers, change damage rolls with simple average)

 

[Alcamtar]

So I'll try a new approach. Instead of making changes like the ones I proposed in that thread, how about trying to simplify the RAW exclusively by removing stuff?

You can remove skills and feats easily, and end up with something that looks a lot like AD&D. However balance will be severely disrupted.

I experimented with a simplified Fighter based on the NPC Warrior template. Since Warrior CR is one less than Fighter CR at every level, you can replace a Fighter of level N with a Warrior of level N+1 and get rid of all those pesky Fighter feats. Then if you assign all the Warrior's feats to Toughness, you've essentially given him +1 hp per level, which is the same as a d12 hit die. That gives us:

Simplified Fighter
Level 1, HD 2d12, BAB +2
Level 2, HD 3d12, BAB +3
Level 4, HD 4d12, BAB +4
Level 5, HD 5d12, BAB +5
Level 6, HD 6d12, BAB +6/+1
etc...

The character has no feats at all and is theoretically balanced. I don't believe he is REALLY balanced however, so I'd also give him Power Attack for free -- it is useless at low levels and helpful at higher levels. Also I might allow simplified fighters to choose a 'kit' in teh form of a single feat (ignoring prerequisites):
-- Melee Specialist = Great Cleave
-- Ranged Specialist = Fast Reload or Rapid Fire
-- Swashbuckler = Finesse or Spring Attack
-- Cavalier = Mounted Combat or Spirited Charge
That allows minor customization and gives them something special they can do to keep things even. Maybe grant the specialization at level 4 or something.

I should mention my goal in this is to be 100% compatible with the RAW, give players the option of which way they want to generate their characters, and give me (as GM) a greatly simplified way to create NPCs on the fly. To stay balanced, you're going to have to offset flexibility with raw power.

Take AoO's for instance. For those of you who have already removed them, how does that work for you?

I have thought and thought about how to do this. As mentioned I would prefer to retain compatibility. My two main problems with AOO are:

(a) It was intended to limit spellcasters and ranged weapons in melee, but give the "5 foot step back" trick, it effectively does neither.

FIX: If any foe within your threatened zone takes a 5 foot step away from you, you may follow immediately as a free action. So if the wizard tries to step back and lightning bolt an orc, the orc can simple step forward and maintain his threat. The wizard really shouldn't be in melee in the first place, and the fighters in the party should be protected him. POSSIBLE PROBLEM: This might make it too easy to take out enemy spellcasters. They'll need beefy bodyguards to hold and/or grapple would-be assailants.

(b) It was also intended to allow a line of characters to form a defensive line and now allow foes to run between/past. This would work in theory except that in my experience, character rarely try to run through enemy lines anyway. Instead what it accomplishes is everyone making these huge circular movements, carefully counting squares, etc... which is really goofy.

FIX: I don't have a good fix for this except for maybe borrowing the old "engagement" rule for AD&D: You are engaged in melee as soon as your (or your foe) attempts a melee attack roll. You may only make AOO if you are (1) engaged with a foe, or (2) holding your action. Alternately if you still want to allow AOO at random passers-by, assign a -4 penalty or something.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Frankly, I never understood what was so hard about AoOs....

 

[Chimera]

One simple change that will reduce the PHB by about half and make the game vastly simpler.

Remove Magic.

No magic, no magic items. No spells, no spell-like abilities.

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Of course I'm kidding. But you gotta admit it would simplify the game.

 

[CRGreathouse]

One simple change that will reduce the PHB by about half and make the game vastly simpler.

Remove Magic.

No magic, no magic items. No spells, no spell-like abilities.

Heck, this would remove 2/3 of the PH and over half of the DMG. Talk about a simplification!

 

[Storyteller01]

Remove the skill synergy bonuses (Unneeded complexity).

Simplify the feat chains

 

[Grayhawk]

Frankly, I never understood what was so hard about AoOs....

It's not that AoO's are hard, it's just that the combination of AoO's + complex special combat options + complex magic rules + many different modifiers to a lot of stuff, is dragging the pace of D&D 3x down, compared to earlier editions (IME).

So if you're looking for a faster flowing 3x game, somethings gotta give. And since earlier editions had great combat without AoO's, it seems like a good candidate.