Smack the monk

[Crothian]

That expalins why I'm unfamiliar with that, I don't get Dungeon.

When I read the monk I think that fighting two handed isn't supposed to work when ever they use their superior number of attacks. At any rate I really think it is badly phrased in the PHB, so who's to say what they meant.

Also, GTWF you need a BAB of +15, so you need to be a 20th level monk to get that. How are you getting Perfect two weapon fighting on top of that? Or are you assuming going into Epic Levels for this? And what is the BAB requirement for Perfect two weapon fighting?

 

[James McMurray]

You just hold your feats until later, then spend them both at 20th. GTWF doesn't have a BAB requirement, apart from its Greater Two-weapon fighting prereq. It does require a 25 dex though.

 

[hong]

That quote just means that a monk can get an extra attack with a monk weapon at only -2 without needing ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting. However, if they want more than that (i.e. improved TWF or beyond) they need the feats. It doesn't say anywhere that they lose their monk iterative attacks if they pick up these feats though, so they should still get 5 attacks per hand at 20th level.

If you want to take advantage of the unarmed iterative progression, and you want to get extra attacks into the bargain, you use flurry of blows.

This doesn't stop you from using the regular TWF mechanic, but it does mean you can no longer take advantage of the better unarmed iterative progression. The monk class description is quite clear on this: "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed". The special monk weapons simply have the property that monks can use their better unarmed progression: "a monk using a kama, nunchaku or siangham can strike with her unarmed base attack, including her more favourable number of attacks per round".

Oh, and there's nothing in the book that allows you to save up a feat until later. That's a house rule, and last I checked, house rules weren't kosher in smackdown threads.

 

[Crothian]

Well, technically speaking your not allowed to hold feats. So, depending on how accurate you want this to be, you might want to rethink it.

 

[James McMurray]

If you want to take advantage of the unarmed iterative progression, and you want to get extra attacks into the bargain, you use flurry of blows.

Or Two weapon fighting

This doesn't stop you from using the regular TWF mechanic, but it does mean you can no longer take advantage of the better unarmed iterative progression.

It doesn't say this anywhere, and as such is a house rule.

The monk class description is quite clear on this: "there is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk fighting unarmed".

True, but in this case the monk is not fighting unarmed. Unless of course you are insinuating that he has nunchuku for hands?

The special monk weapons simply have the property that monks can use their better unarmed progression: "a monk using a kama, nunchaku or siangham can strike with her unarmed base attack, including her more favourable number of attacks per round".

Quite so, but they are still not fighting unarmed. You are reading into it to mean that they cannot use their iterative attacks with their off hand. However, that's not what it says anywhere.

Oh, and there's nothing in the book that allows you to save up a feat until later. That's a house rule, and last I checked, house rules weren't kosher in smackdown threads.

True. I remember reading a blurb somewhere about holding feats, giving the example of the character picking up Iron Will at the last minute to make a save. However, it wasn't from the PHB, and I'm not sure where it was from exactly.

So instead, you switch to Monk 9 / Drunken Master 10 / Fighter 1. At 18th level you acquire greater two-weapon fighting. Then at 20th level (1st level fighter) you get perfect two-weapon fighting. Granted, the Epic Level Handbook is not out, but we can probably assume that PTWF will be added to the fighter's list of bonus feats.

In the end you've still got the same number of attacks, but you've got a higher bonus with them.

 

[hong]

True, but in this case the monk is not fighting unarmed. Unless of course you are insinuating that he has nunchuku for hands?

It's interesting that you should say that.

Note that the "unarmed attack bonus" from Table 3-10 in the PHB applies to both unarmed strikes, and attacks with monk weapons. Since monks clearly do not have nunchaku for hands, the conclusion must be that "unarmed" is merely shorthand for a particular attack form that only monks have. Let's call it "foo" to avoid confusion with actual unarmed strikes.

The "foo attack bonus" that monks get is something that they can apply to both unarmed strikes, and to attacks with monk weapons (if they desire). However, a special feature of this "foo attack bonus" is that regular off-hand attacks don't apply. Instead, a monk who uses monk weapons in conjunction with the foo attack bonus can use flurry of blows if so desired.

Of course, a monk with a special monk weapon can _choose_ not to use this "foo attack bonus", and use her regular BAB instead. In this case, she could take advantage of feats like TWF, Improved TWF and so on. However, since she isn't using her "foo attacks" anymore, she can no longer get the better iterative attacks.

Furthermore, note that "a monk fighting with a one-handed weapon can make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting". Likewise, "a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows". All of this shows that references to "unarmed" attacks in the monk class description can't be taken too literally. For if this were the case, then the "unarmed attack bonus" would hold whenever a monk made an unarmed attack, regardless of whether she had a weapon in hand -- and that's not true. Hence the "foo attack form" interpretation given above.

 

[James McMurray]

That is inded a valid interpretation. As is mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[hong]

I suppose it wouldn't be out of place to pimp my martial artist class, which does away with all this unarmed attack bonus nonsense and makes life much more straightforward all round.

 

[James McMurray]

No more so than it would be for me to pimp mine

 

[Crothian]

That is inded a valid interpretation. As is mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sounds like another Sage writing campaign on this subject should start.