Smackdown time, need 4

[Berk]

I need 4 level 86 characters to take on a collosal advanced great wyrm paragon red dragon with 35 levels of wizard, 5 levels of archmage, and 10 levels of fighter. It's basically the big bad in the campaign world that me and my brother run and play in. The CR of the dragon is 86, worked out with the template and everything added on, and I want to prove to my brother that a group of 4 86 level characters couldn't kill it. I wanna take the best 4 and pit them up against the dragon and actually play it out to see who would win.

Discuss!!!

Oh yeah forgot, the source books that we use are all 3 core rule books, MM, MMII, book of horrors, relics and rituals, CC, CCII, MoF, S&F, DoTF, MoTW, T&B, S&S, ELH. Can use any templates, as long as it all works out rules wise. No spelldancers, and no harper stuff. That's about all I can think of atm. Pretty sure that that covers all of it.

 

[Victim]

Umm, how much starting gold?

 

[Buddha the DM]

183.8 million gp for an 86th Level Character

 

[Berk]

183.8 million gp for an 86th Level Character

That sounds about right, don't have the chart near me atm but remember starting gold for a level 100 character being around 275mil so call it 185 mil with no max amount on how much a single item may cost.

 

[palin]

Correction/Clarrifications

He's an Advanced Paragon Collosal+ Great Wyrm Red Dragon (61 HD) and a 30th level Wizard/10th Level Fighter/5th Level ArchMage (as per FRCS).

The Advanced/Paragon are as per ELH.

I may have thrown in one extra feat or two....

I think a group of 4 86th level characters (with all that 86th level entails) will beat the pi$$ out of him. Berk doesn't think so....

The world we run tends to be glutted with magic items BTW.

Also note that we don't normally play at this level, I just needed to put some numbers to a character that has interacted with various 17th to 20th level PCs before and this is what I came up with based on what I knew he could do.

I'm hoping some people can come up with a group and we'll play them out.

I'll also end up posting the Dragon to my website when I'm done (or have a little more worked out wrt magic items, epic spells and the like)...

 

[Victim]

Dang it, I just realized I forgot my ELH at home over Thanksgiving break. It will be a few weeks before I can do anything.

However, some kind of Epic dispeling from an 86th level caster, followed by Harm and an attack should be able to finish the dragon. IIRC, its caster level is nothing a level 86 caster, making dispels essentially automagic. The dragon's 35 or so magic user levels should be easily negated.

 

[Berk]

We don't really house rule harm in our world, but getting close enough to even think about actually using harm against a dragon is one thing, then there is SR and all that. Plus other ways to protect against it. Anyways, I don't want this thread to turn into an argument about harm. IMHO, it's fine as is and loses it's potency as you go up in levels. Anyways, god knows what else the dragon has for protection and all. And if the dragon has lived this long, then there is a reason for it.

 

[Victim]

That's why you use an Epic Dispeling spell first. And a item of Quickened Teleport without Error costs less than 5 million. Distance? What's that?

 

[James McMurray]

No need for Epic Dispel, when you have Mord's Disjunction.

I wouldn't rely on Harm though. I'm not sure what the SR of a CR86 Great Wyrm is, but its probably pretty high. I believe the average SR is CR+11, which gives an SR of 97. Given that dragons are generally more powerful than their CR indicates, this one probably has SR 104.

Also, any dragon that can't deal with Harm (through contingencies, Epic Spells, or other means) would never have made it to CR86 to begin with.

Finally, STOP MENTIONING HARM! ALL IT DOES IS DERAIL THREADS!!!!!



As for a smackdown, I would seriously consdier using a dmeilich, loaded down with 53 spellcaster levels (most of which from the most broken prestige classes you can find. I say this for several reasons:

1. You are immune to most magic. It is highly doubtful that the Dragon has Holy Smite or Dispel Evil. And even Shatter will only do 10d6 / 2 to you.
2. DR 30/-: when the dragon can't hurt you with spells, it will have to attack with natural attacks.
3. Harm at will (i.e. Heal self at will)
4. Phylactery transference. With your gear on the far side of the planet, you are safe from Disjunction.
5. Astral Projection at will: you don't even actually have to be there for the battle.
6. +53 insight bonus to AC. Stacking that with major magical defenses can make it hard for even an advanced dragon to hit you.
   [/list=1]
   
   Now then, what to do for offense I have no idea.
   
   Alternatively, an 86th level paladin dual-wielding Holy Devestators with a ton of extra-smiting feats and Perfect two-weapon fighting could deal some serious damage. Each successful Smite is worth 172 damage. Of course, you'll want to have a mage friend nearby to disjunction the dragon's defensive spells before you start smiting.
   
   Heck, the Holy Devestator is only a +15 weapon costwise, so you could easily add another +85 worth of weapon enchantments. Lawful Power, all of the X blasts, Dragon bane, Dragon dread, Keen and an extra +37 enhancement bonus should serve you fairly well.
   
   You'd have +53 to hit from levels alone, +50 from the weapon, and + who knows how much from your smite (at least 15, although an item of +70 to charisma is less than 50,000,000 gold and well worth it considering it would give you +35 to save, +35 damage (via Divine Might), and +70 to hit(smite + divine mght)). I would spend nearly all of your under 20th level feats on extra smiting, and nearly all of you over 20th feats on boosting your to hit rolls via Epic weapon focus and Epic Prowess.
   
   Don't worry too much about buff spells, as both your party and the dragon should be disjunctioning three times in the first round (if necessary).
   
   Of course, an 86th level sorcerer with 5000 43rd level simulacrum lackeys could be pretty devestating, even if all they did was sit back and constatnly try to beat the dragon's SR with a Temporal Stasis (or other no save spell) boosted by the Reach Spell metamagic feat (and of course three helpings of Improved Metamagic from feats or class abilities).

 

[The Souljourner]

Paladin 10/Templar 76

Assuming same epic feat progression as paladin, that's 22 great smitings.

Something on the order of 15 smites per day.

Some kind of super-mount, spirited charge, holy sworded lance... = 4x damage

86*23 = 1914 x 4 = 7656 damage, just from the smite damage. Could take power critical and bless weapon for the guaranteed critical and automatically do another 4800 damage assuming you hit. Of course, if you're not immune to criticals by 86th level, you're a fool.

With ride by attack and a mount that has a really huge movement and spring attack, you can do this all day, no AoO.

So... yeah, that's not too bad. Could get another few hundred in there from strength and divine might and stuffbut really, what's another 300 added on the the 7600 you're already doing?

I suppose magic items could have a big effect...but with 7500 damage per hit, you're well on your way.

-The Souljourner