Small Rogue / Swordsage TWF Build Advice
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Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
moritheil said:Yeah, I have played a Dark Whisper Gnome that required enemies to make DC 60 spot checks at around level 6. HiPS is insanely good combined with it.I just thought you wanted a halfling for story reasons.
Actually I just want a small character, since I never played one in 3e. I am not committed to halfling.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Mistwell said:
Just felt the need to comment on this. Stormguard Warrior, if you have no Warblade levels, is extremely costly in feats to obtain (heck, even as a warblade it's still not exactly free). Adaptive Style should not be under "contemplating," it's almost as critical to SS as Natural Spell is to Druid, IME. Unless combats in your group never exceed 3 rounds, and you're confident you'll never need to switch to a maneuver you neglected to ready, etc... Gloom Razor is kinda nice, the major downside is with medium BAB, you're basically blowing a level 9+ feat on it, and at that point, there may well be many things you want.
If you're open to other small races, I also vote Whisper Gnome. I personally had good success with Desert Wind Dodge + Titan Fighting. Basically, for the price of 2 feats, gain +1 dodge AC or +4 if foe is medium or larger, as long as you move 10 or more feet in the round. Drink a reduce person potion, and it gives +4 AC vs. small foes, too! Expeditious Dodge (move 40+ feet and get +2 dodge AC) is nice to tack on later if you can get your speed up with boots or class feature and have a high enough tumble mod to easily make DC 25 (no reduced movement).
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Two-Weapon Fighting + Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade = 3 of 4 total feats already. There just isn't room for all those additional feats. And since the build is currently built around some hefty sneak attack damage, Craven seems like a better choice at this point for that fourth slot.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
You could take flaws?
I understand why you want Craven, and darn it sounds good. +10 damage is like...+3d6! Still, the problem with sneak attack dice IME isn't that the damage is too low (it's quite delightful, actually!), it's that you don't get it nearly often enough. Undead, constructs, plant creatures, oozes, pricks in fortification armor...just too many situations where it's shut off entirely. Thus, my argument against Craven isn't that it's bad. It's that it helps you in an area you don't need help in, and does nothing for the areas you do need help in. Of course, I'm also assuming you'll be using strike maneuvers frequently. iI sticking to boosts and counters mainly, I suppose you'll be more reliant on SA dice. Still, a hearty vote for Adaptive Style. Refitting yourself with a whole new set of maneuvers in just 6 seconds is incredibly handy.
I understand why you want Craven, and darn it sounds good. +10 damage is like...+3d6! Still, the problem with sneak attack dice IME isn't that the damage is too low (it's quite delightful, actually!), it's that you don't get it nearly often enough. Undead, constructs, plant creatures, oozes, pricks in fortification armor...just too many situations where it's shut off entirely. Thus, my argument against Craven isn't that it's bad. It's that it helps you in an area you don't need help in, and does nothing for the areas you do need help in. Of course, I'm also assuming you'll be using strike maneuvers frequently. iI sticking to boosts and counters mainly, I suppose you'll be more reliant on SA dice. Still, a hearty vote for Adaptive Style. Refitting yourself with a whole new set of maneuvers in just 6 seconds is incredibly handy.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
moritheil said:
And how are you dealing so easily with that -20 hide penalty for hiding after attacking? There's a feat to knock it down to -10, but feats are precious. Also, by level 10, extra-sensory abilities start to become more common in monsters. Hiding from vision alone may often not be enough. +4 dodge AC and Uncanny Dodge always work, unless you get paralyzed or grappled or otherwise put in a situation where you're SOL anyway...
As a final point, fireball doesn't care if it can't see you, if it knows which way you went.
EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify a little. The main reason I like DW Dodge + Titan Fighting is for tanking, not purely personal safety. It works so well. Enemy sees you, looking all squishy, darting around annoyingly dealing significant damage and targets you....only to realize it can't hit you too well... Thus wasting its actions for the rest of the party to pound it down. Worked well for me, maybe not for others. At least in my games, AC 31 and 20% miss chance (Child of Shadow) at level 9 = practically unhittable.
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moritheil
First Post
StreamOfTheSky said:And how are you dealing so easily with that -20 hide penalty for hiding after attacking? There's a feat to knock it down to -10, but feats are precious. Also, by level 10, extra-sensory abilities start to become more common in monsters. Hiding from vision alone may often not be enough. +4 dodge AC and Uncanny Dodge always work, unless you get paralyzed or grappled or otherwise put in a situation where you're SOL anyway...
As a final point, fireball doesn't care if it can't see you, if it knows which way you went.
EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify a little. The main reason I like DW Dodge + Titan Fighting is for tanking, not purely personal safety. It works so well. Enemy sees you, looking all squishy, darting around annoyingly dealing significant damage and targets you....only to realize it can't hit you too well... Thus wasting its actions for the rest of the party to pound it down. Worked well for me, maybe not for others. At least in my games, AC 31 and 20% miss chance (Child of Shadow) at level 9 = practically unhittable.
Well, you're obviously relying on killing the most significant enemies in the surprise + opening round, just like any typical heavy SA build. At an average resultant spot DC in the 50s or 60s, you can afford to take a -20 and just move away at full speed when you hide. Mages are not known for having epic spot modifiers at low levels, what with it being a cross-class skill.
I agree that you can't tank if you're always hiding, but it wasn't in his list of requirements.
Overall, I don't mind conceding that this build has severe limitations, but the OP indicated that he's OK with that. It comes with the territory in just about any SA build.
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Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
StreamOfTheSky said:And how are you dealing so easily with that -20 hide penalty for hiding after attacking? There's a feat to knock it down to -10, but feats are precious. Also, by level 10, extra-sensory abilities start to become more common in monsters. Hiding from vision alone may often not be enough. +4 dodge AC and Uncanny Dodge always work, unless you get paralyzed or grappled or otherwise put in a situation where you're SOL anyway...
As a final point, fireball doesn't care if it can't see you, if it knows which way you went.
EDIT: Perhaps I should clarify a little. The main reason I like DW Dodge + Titan Fighting is for tanking, not purely personal safety. It works so well. Enemy sees you, looking all squishy, darting around annoyingly dealing significant damage and targets you....only to realize it can't hit you too well... Thus wasting its actions for the rest of the party to pound it down. Worked well for me, maybe not for others. At least in my games, AC 31 and 20% miss chance (Child of Shadow) at level 9 = practically unhittable.
If I go with the Dark Whisper Gnome, a -20 to hide won't be a big deal, given the race and template alone grant a +16 to hide.
Darklone
Registered User
Hmm, I wanted to try something similar... actually a kobold, but halfling will do similarly well.
It's rogue/wiz (or sorc)/daggermage/arcane trickster with TWF and Rapid Shot and Crossbow Sniper ... you need flaws for more feats though. And I was thinking about heading towards Shadowbane Inquisitor instead for Divine Favor (quickened), Divine Might and that cleric spell that adds +10 to dex...
It's rogue/wiz (or sorc)/daggermage/arcane trickster with TWF and Rapid Shot and Crossbow Sniper ... you need flaws for more feats though. And I was thinking about heading towards Shadowbane Inquisitor instead for Divine Favor (quickened), Divine Might and that cleric spell that adds +10 to dex...
