[/snarky mode on] New Character Closeup

[billd91]

We have one player who's always unlucky in dice rolling. If we're using 4d6 drop lowest, he normally has to roll 3+ times before he gets a character that doesn't qualify for a re-roll. Another guy just rolled someone up who has three seventeens, a fifteen, a fourteen, and a twelve.

That's why when I DM everyone uses 25-point buy.

Actually, this is precisely why I use 4d6-drop lowest, roll 6 times, arrange as you see fit. I don't allow re-rolls unless the stat is hopeless (3 or 4) and then it's 1 re-roll, no tag-backs.

I tend to let the dice fall where they may kind of guy when it comes to character generation. I want to see how the players make use of the resources they have and I find it more fun that way. Some characters have more going for them by luck than others. Some have to work harder for the same advantages and boy, can they role-play that up. Fine with me. My NPCs are like that too.

 

[TiQuinn]

This argument cracks me up. I've heard it before, but it still gives me a chuckle.

If you buy 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8 = dull campaign?

If you roll 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8 = exciting campaign?

While you're chuckling, consider this POV:

Player 1 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 2 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 3 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 4 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8

etc, etc, etc.

Does it make for a boring campaign? Nooooooooo....but it does make character creation more boring.

 

[Ravellion]

I just took this idea and started a list of 28 point-buy stats. I figured if someone really wanted to roll randomly for their stats, I'd let them roll the d100 for a random stat that still equalled 28 points. After the first two dozen different sets of stats, I got tired of writing them all out.

Maybe I'll finish the list later.

Well, the average score for 4d6 drop lowest actually is circa 28. The norm of 25 is because extra customisability is given.

Anyway, creating a list of 28 point buy stats is completely useless. Most people want to try and get lucky or quirky characters.

The 18,16,10,8,8,8 character is the best you can do too to have two exceptional abilities. Tow 18s do not break a game necessarily, and it is fun to have the chance to play a slightly more powerful character if you can roll him up. It is the excesses of randomness that should be looked out for, but as (I think Psion) said earlier, that doesn't mean randomness should be done away with completely.

Rav

 

[Pielorinho]

Does it make for a boring campaign? Nooooooooo....but it does make character creation more boring.

Not in my experience, not at all. First off, people don't all choose the same stat outlay with a 28-point buy (what I use). Some folks like to have something like:

14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10

relying on racial bonuses to get one score up to a 16. Other folks will prefer to start with an 18, and will change one 14 to a 10 in order to gain it. Others still will put in a few odd scores, planning to raise them at later levels to get their bonuses faster. Others are fine having a low skill that they can put in a stat their character won't use so much.

There's plenty of variation. But here's the kicker:

When we roll 4d6 for stat generation, folks finish their rolling in about two minutes, and maybe spend another five minutes figuring out where to put them. I've seen folks puzzle for a few days over where to put their point buys, however, changing and tweaking and adjusting and writing me emails to confirm rules points and so on.

Furthermore, in one campaign I play in, point buy ranges from 22 points to 30 points, depending on how much work you put into character generation. Write up a letter from your character to an important NPC; paint a miniature of your PC; detail your PC's history; detail your PC's friends and family; and detail your PC's equipment -- and you get 30 points. Come up with a bunch of stats and slap a name on it, and you get 22 points.

I definitely find point-buy to lead to more interesting character generation, especially when you get bonus points for additional character information.

Daniel

 

[KB9JMQ]

I like the 4d6 drop lowest arrange to suit keep what you get.
Yes you get 8's and 10's occasionally.
You also get multiple 18's occasionally.

I like it because life hands people multiple 18's and 8's and 10's once in a while and people learn to live with it. Seems natural to me. YMMV

 

[Urbannen]

The groups I have played with have had the following methods:

1. Roll at home using the "normal" method. This effectively means rolling as many sets of stats as it takes to get an 18, a 17, and two 16s. (Proof: one player used the D&D character generator to get stats. The sheet records how many times you roll and prints out the totals. The player rolled 25 times to get his 18 Dex, 18 Int rogue.) DM never checks stats.

2. Roll 4d6 seven times. Any roll of a one is rerolled. Roll three sets of stats like this. Choose one set, drop the lowest score and arrange to taste. DM never watches rolls.

3. Same as second method.

When I run games I use the 32-point buy method and that is what my next DM is doing as well. I like point-buy because it alleviates competitive pressures within the group. Almost everyone else I know of uses very, very liberal methods for "rolling" stats. I am usually the one with the lowest stats because I actually only roll once when I'm supposed to.

The idea that 32-points is a high-powered campaign is a real joke in my experience.

 

[TiQuinn]

Not in my experience, not at all. First off, people don't all choose the same stat outlay with a 28-point buy (what I use). Some folks like to have something like:

14, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10

relying on racial bonuses to get one score up to a 16. Other folks will prefer to start with an 18, and will change one 14 to a 10 in order to gain it. Others still will put in a few odd scores, planning to raise them at later levels to get their bonuses faster. Others are fine having a low skill that they can put in a stat their character won't use so much.

....

I definitely find point-buy to lead to more interesting character generation, especially when you get bonus points for additional character information.

Daniel

I just miss the variation that can come up when rolling 4d6. Point buy offers a couple of variations, but in actual gameplay, I notice people gravitate to the same kinds of score distributions. Everyone in my game used to comment on it, and it became a running joke for a little while. This is all over the course of 3 campaigns. Next time, I'm going back to the 4d6 method. It would be the first time I've done it with 3rd edition, so I'll see if there's a problem.

 

[Quasqueton]

While you're chuckling, consider this POV:

Player 1 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 2 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 3 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8
Player 4 scores: 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8

etc, etc, etc.

Does it make for a boring campaign? Nooooooooo....but it does make character creation more boring.

And can you give an estimate on how many times that has happened? And even if it did happen, did the characters all have the same race, class, equipment, personalities?

And if you think that makes for boring character creation, at least it only takes half an hour to complete the creation. You can then move on to the actual game, where the real excitement takes place.

Just for the hell of it:

Dwarf Fighter
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 10, Chr 8
AC 15, HP 13
Scale mail armor, large shield, waraxe
Personality: tactical thinker, loves big swirling battles

Halfling Sorcerer
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 8, Chr 16
AC 13, HP 4
Dagger
Personality: wants to be a high noble, would sign a pact with a devil if it would get him what he wants

Both made off those "boring" stats from above. In about 2 minutes (the time it took to type it out).

Quasqueton

 

[Psion]

This argument cracks me up. I've heard it before, but it still gives me a chuckle.

If you buy 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8 = dull campaign?

If you roll 16, 15, 14, 10, 10, 8 = exciting campaign?

Well, there is obviously more than one element to the game. But yes, I do consider cutting all characters from the same cloth makes that aspect of the game dull.

For an experiment, I rolled up 10 sets of stats using the standard 4d6 drop lowest method to compare to point buy.

Here is what I got, with the point buy total to compare:

• 16, 13, 11, 10, 7, 7 = 18 points
  
  17, 16, 14, 14, 12, 11 = 42 points
  
  16, 14, 14, 13, 12, 11 = 34 points
  
  15, 14, 12, 10, 9, 9 = 22 points
  
  15, 14, 14, 12, 12, 10 = 30 points
  
  16, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10 = 33 points
  
  18, 16, 14, 13, 13, 12 = 46 points
  
  15, 15, 14, 14, 11, 7 = 30 points
  
  15, 15, 14, 13, 12, 8 = 31 points
  
  14, 12, 11, 11, 10, 8 = 18 points

Average score rolled = 12.6

Average points for buy= 30.4

Interesting?

See now, what I'd do is make a 5 point spread around that 30, keeping point totals from 25-35 (or maybe a bit higher.) That adds a little variety while excluding outlandish disparities in power.

 

[Pielorinho]

I just miss the variation that can come up when rolling 4d6. Point buy offers a couple of variations, but in actual gameplay, I notice people gravitate to the same kinds of score distributions. Everyone in my game used to comment on it, and it became a running joke for a little while.

We don't generally see one another's scores, so we don't notice whether we have the same six scores arranged in a different order. Variety of character comes from the mechanical choices we make -- classes, feats, companions, skills, equipment -- in addition to the roleplaying choices we make -- personality, background, contacts, ethos, and so forth.

Daniel