[/snarky mode on] New Character Closeup

[TiQuinn]

And can you give an estimate on how many times that has happened? And even if it did happen, did the characters all have the same race, class, equipment, personalities?

And if you think that makes for boring character creation, at least it only takes half an hour to complete the creation. You can then move on to the actual game, where the real excitement takes place.

Just for the hell of it:

Dwarf Fighter
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 10, Chr 8
AC 15, HP 13
Scale mail armor, large shield, waraxe
Personality: tactical thinker, loves big swirling battles

Halfling Sorcerer
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 8, Chr 16
AC 13, HP 4
Dagger
Personality: wants to be a high noble, would sign a pact with a devil if it would get him what he wants

Both made off those "boring" stats from above. In about 2 minutes (the time it took to type it out).

Quasqueton

Yeah, I find that dull after a while.

 

[TiQuinn]

We don't generally see one another's scores, so we don't notice whether we have the same six scores arranged in a different order. Variety of character comes from the mechanical choices we make -- classes, feats, companions, skills, equipment -- in addition to the roleplaying choices we make -- personality, background, contacts, ethos, and so forth.

Daniel

Yeah, that's one thing that we differ on. My group tends to compare sheets frequently.

 

[Psion]

And if you think that makes for boring character creation, at least it only takes half an hour to complete the creation. You can then move on to the actual game, where the real excitement takes place.

Just for the hell of it:

Dwarf Fighter
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 10, Chr 8
AC 15, HP 13
Scale mail armor, large shield, waraxe
Personality: tactical thinker, loves big swirling battles

Halfling Sorcerer
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 8, Chr 16
AC 13, HP 4
Dagger
Personality: wants to be a high noble, would sign a pact with a devil if it would get him what he wants

I take it you have no "specialist" type players who essentially play the same character all the time in your game then? Or have two players who want to play the same type of character? It is in these situations, the varying stats add the most spice to the game.

 

[Quasqueton]

Yeah, I find that dull after a while.

The problem between us is that I don't understand what you are saying is dull. What, exactly, do you find "dull after a while"?

Yeah, that's one thing that we differ on. My group tends to compare sheets frequently.

Why?

I take it you have no "specialist" type players who essentially play the same character all the time in your game then? Or have two players who want to play the same type of character? It is in these situations, the varying stats add the most spice to the game.

Well, admitting that you have a problem player (the "specialist") is more honest than saying the point buy system is problematic.

Like someone claiming the nat20 = autohit rule is bad because one of his players is always rolling a natural 20 on a loaded die.

And in all my years experience (~23), I have never seen any two players come up with the same character concept. I've seen them choose the same race or class, and even race and class, but never the same concept. I really think it is more statistically possible for two players to roll up the same numbers than to come up with the same character concept.

If you like the randomness of roll for character abilities, that's fine and dandy. But be honest about it. Don't argue that point buy is dull, boring, repetitive, or results in identical characters. That is demonstrably not true.

And finally, here's a statement to start another argument in the other direction: I beleive most people who prefer rolling their stats, like doing so because they beleive they can out roll the point buy. They know they can reroll a set of stats that comes in too low, but usually they can keep a set that comes in well above the point buy. For instance, if the point buy "magic number" is 28, most DMs will let a player reroll a set of stats that add up to 24 or less. But many DMs will allow the player to keep a set of stats that clock in at 32 or more.

Quasqueton

 

[TiQuinn]

Ahhh...had a long post and playing with quotes messed it up.

Point is, Quas, I prefer rolling dice because I find greater variation than point buy. You have a different opinion. I've played with the same group for the past 10 years. They tend to trade character sheets. They're all good players, so I don't have a problem with it. It's their call. Maybe that short-circuits the point buy, maybe it doesn't.

I still prefer 4d6. End of Story.

BTW, I also don't think that a specialist player is a "problem player".

Honest.

 

[Psion]

Well, admitting that you have a problem player (the "specialist") is more honest than saying the point buy system is problematic.

Hold on bucky. Who said that specialists are a "problem player type"? Why should I care if the player like blast wizards (or ninja-rogues, or whatever) and it's all he ever plays? It's up to him to decide what general type of character he likes to play, not me.

And in all my years experience (~23), I have never seen any two players come up with the same character concept.

As you should know by now, Quas, my beard is as grey as yours. And yes, I have seen many overlapping character types, mainly fighters, rangers, and wizards.

If you like the randomness of roll for character abilities, that's fine and dandy. But be honest about it. Don't argue that point buy is dull, boring, repetitive, or results in identical characters. That is demonstrably not true.

It does, very often, result in characters who are remarkably close. And it is true. I have seen it multiple times in point build systems.

 

[Mark]

If players want to make their characters uneven from the others by placing stats in positions that make them less powerful than others, that's certainly their choice. A point-buy number at least ensures that all players have the opportunity to be on an equal footing without forcing them to play it out in that way.

I prefer a 28 point-buy for playtesting purposes but have run games at all levels.

Some people get excited when the numbers are higher and others get excited when they feel the struggle is great because the numbers are lower.

I had one game where a player insisted on rolling dice for generation, so I let him. Then I took what he rolled, figured out the point-buy, and had the rest of the players start from there. It was kinda sad that the other players were disappointed playing with a 22 point-buy, but that's what the poor fellow rolled and they all wound up having a blast anyway.

Makes no real difference to me as a DM. I just make sure to keep them challenged regardless of the set up.

 

[ZSutherland]

My group uses, pretty much regardless of DM, an 80 point system (very different from an 80 point buy which would just be ridiculous). Yes, it demands high stats and nearly completely negates racial mods (though to use a halfling as an example the -2 STR means max starting STR is 16). We just find it simpler than the point buy math (some of my players are math challenged) and fairer than rolling and its attendant disparity, but its fun and as the most frequent DM it gives me an excuse to beef up fights while never having players excluded from any concept because they can't float the necessary stats.

Z

 

[Will]

Well, my 2 cp...

First, given the design of 3e around 'measured challenge,' variations due to rolled stats seem to break the system. If one person has low stats and another has high stats... doesn't that mean each is being challenged differently? Balance is an important design goal of 3e, and random abilities seem as sensible as deciding how many levels people should have randomly.

Consider templates that consist of bonuses to stats. Effectively, the guy who rolled badly gets all the fun of a level hit (negative ECL) without any counterbalance.

Second, as for 'variation is fun'... I used to be a big fan of rolling with the punches in a system and weaving it into my fun. After many many abuses and situations where it transpired I had jack-all to do or no ability to do even the fun quirky things I'd like, I've realized... screw it. I want balance. I can add the flavor and direction to it, but don't try to sweet talk me into starting behind other characters for some dramatic challenge. I can play my character weaker if I want, but being forced to do so is generally the beginning of a frustrating gaming experience.

Third, I'm in a game right now where we have standard NPC stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
We're all elves... my elven cleric, with 14, 10, 10, 15, 13, looks a lot different than the rogue/monk and the wizard.


I'm honestly puzzled by the idea that 6 ability numbers are all that significant in the flavor and cloth of a character. They are a factor, sure... but how those scores interact with classes, skills, and all the descriptive aspect of the character...

I find that very strange.

 

[Painfully]

I'm one of those that prefers point-buy. If you cannot actually "be there" when your players are making their characters, it can save a lot of time to use point-buy by letting your players complete their characters on their own time.