Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Artoomis]

I used to be in the 1 sneak attack camp, but I've since changed my mind. I've played it both ways in my games and I don't see anything overpowering about giving sneak attack to every attack in a full attack action with invisibility. So, I guess it could have been me, but I doubt it.

I really think you can go either way on this one.

I'll repeat the two questions that are important here:

If you start out invisible, do you:

1. Turn visible after your first attack, or after your entire attack routine (let's not discuss "hasted," okay)?

AND

2. If you do turn visible after your first attack, does your opponent regain his dex bonus as soon as you are visisble, or not until his turn?

Obviously, the questions of how many sneak attacks you get when you start out invisible is answered by how you answer (1) and (2) above.

I think the answer to (1) is "Yes."

The answer to (2) is also "Yes," since the condition that denies him his dexterity bonus no longer exists.

 

[kreynolds]

I think the answer to (1) is "Yes."

The answer to (2) is also "Yes," since the condition that denies him his dexterity bonus no longer exists.

Something wierd here. If you "think" the answer to (1) is "yes", then I assume you also "think" the answer to (2) is "yes". It would be difficult to think you know the answer to (1) yet be 100% positive that you know the answer to (2), since (2) is dependant upon (1).

 

[Pielorinho]

The answer to (2) is also "Yes," since the condition that denies him his dexterity bonus no longer exists.

I agree with you, Artoomis; the only counterargument I could imagine would be something in the core suggesting that passive conditions (e.g., being denied a dex bonus) last for an entire action.

Here's another question. Imagine that Bob the Rogue and Liza the Wizard are fighting an ogre. Bob has multiple attacks, and for some reasons, Liza has readied an action to cast invisibility on the next ally of hers who makes a melee attack against the ogre.

Bob attacks the ogre. He's visible now, so the ogre is not denied his dex bonus. Then Lisa's readied action goes off. Now Bob is invisible, and he attacks the ogre again.

Is the ogre denied his dex bonus against Bob's attack? If the dex-bonus-denial is something that can't change in the middle of a full-attack option, then the ogre presumably retains his dex bonus against his invisible opponent.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Something wierd here. If you "think" the answer to (1) is "yes", then I assume you also "think" the answer to (2) is "yes". It would be difficult to think you know the answer to (1) yet be 100% positive that you know the answer to (2), since (2) is dependant upon (1).

Well, my friend, just like you, everything I write is what "I think." I just happened to state that positively once, and skipped it once. Sorry to confuse you.

 

[Artoomis]

I agree with you, Artoomis; the only counterargument I could imagine would be something in the core suggesting that passive conditions (e.g., being denied a dex bonus) last for an entire action.

Here's another question. Imagine that Bob the Rogue and Liza the Wizard are fighting an ogre. Bob has multiple attacks, and for some reasons, Liza has readied an action to cast invisibility on the next ally of hers who makes a melee attack against the ogre.

Bob attacks the ogre. He's visible now, so the ogre is not denied his dex bonus. Then Lisa's readied action goes off. Now Bob is invisible, and he attacks the ogre again.

Is the ogre denied his dex bonus against Bob's attack? If the dex-bonus-denial is something that can't change in the middle of a full-attack option, then the ogre presumably retains his dex bonus against his invisible opponent.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Daniel

Ah, the reverse of our current scenario. Very nice.

Of course, the ogre is denied his dex bonus, for the attacker is invisible at the time of the actual attack.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Here's another question. Imagine that Bob the Rogue and Liza the Wizard are fighting an ogre. Bob has multiple attacks, and for some reasons, Liza has readied an action to cast invisibility on the next ally of hers who makes a melee attack against the ogre.

Bob attacks the ogre. He's visible now, so the ogre is not denied his dex bonus. Then Lisa's readied action goes off. Now Bob is invisible, and he attacks the ogre again.

Is the ogre denied his dex bonus against Bob's attack? If the dex-bonus-denial is something that can't change in the middle of a full-attack option, then the ogre presumably retains his dex bonus against his invisible opponent.

Does this make sense to anyone?

No. (EDIT: It doesn't make sense.)

Readied actions are always handled before the triggering action, so was invisible before the first attack.

 

[Pielorinho]

No.

Readied actions are always handled before the triggering action, so was invisible before the first attack.

???

Lemme change the scenario: Liza readies an invisibility spell to cast on the first of her allies who fails in a melee attack against the ogre: she figures whoever fails in their attack needs her help.

Bob the rogue requires a roll of 17 to hit the ogre. He rolls a 16.

Now what happens?

If her readied action goes off before his attack, then he gets a +2 on his first attack against the ogre, meaning that he hits the ogre, meaning that the readied action's trigger doesn't go off, meaning that he's not invisible, meaning that he doesn't get a +2 to hit. Meaning that he misses, meaning that her readied action goes off.....

I'm sure you can jump off that merry-go-round when you feel like it. Can you jump off of it without changing your position?

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

???

Lemme change the scenario: Liza readies an invisibility spell to cast on the first of her allies who fails in a melee attack against the ogre: she figures whoever fails in their attack needs her help.

Bob the rogue requires a roll of 17 to hit the ogre. He rolls a 16.

Now what happens?

If her readied action goes off before his attack, then he gets a +2 on his first attack against the ogre, meaning that he hits the ogre, meaning that the readied action's trigger doesn't go off, meaning that he's not invisible, meaning that he doesn't get a +2 to hit. Meaning that he misses, meaning that her readied action goes off.....

I'm sure you can jump off that merry-go-round when you feel like it. Can you jump off of it without changing your position?

Daniel

Oh, this is just an illustration of the problem with readied actions and timing - there are many examples of readied actions resulting in the triggering actions never occuring.

Of course, the triggering action was still attempted, and that's all that's needed. I'm not sure I'd allow the triggering action of the result of an action, but only on the attempt, thus avoiding this whole problem.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Lemme change the scenario: Liza readies an invisibility spell to cast on the first of her allies who fails in a melee attack against the ogre: she figures whoever fails in their attack needs her help.

Bob the rogue requires a roll of 17 to hit the ogre. He rolls a 16.

Now what happens?

Well, that sure was a fun merry-go-round, but it does not change the readying rules.

EDIT: Since the readied action in this case has the trigger of other action being completed it trigger then.

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, that sure was a fun merry-go-round, but it does not change the readying rules.

EDIT: Since the readied action in this case has the trigger of other action being completed it trigger then.

If I understand what you're saying here, in my second example, you agree that Liza's readied invisibility spell occurs after Bob's first attack but before his second attack. Am I understanding you correctly?

If so, my original question applies: does the ogre lose his dex bonus against his invisible opponent for Bob's second attack?

Daniel