Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Pielorinho]

If you wait to act based upon a completed action (when the orc breaks through the door), then you should not use a readied action, in most cases. You should using DELAY, and act right after that creature, with your full actions instead of only a partial action.

EDIT: Remember, a readied action is designed to interrupt an action, not act after it.

This is a tactical call, not a rules-call, I think -- although you may be making two separate points here.

I may, for example, want to cast "feeblemind" on the next person who comes through the door: I expect it to be the deadly wizard Dastardly Dan, and I'd rather catch him before he gets off his Horrid Wilting spell.

He's planning on using his MEA to open the door and then casting his Horrid Wilting spell.

Are you telling me that I can't possibly cast feeblemind before he gets his spell off?

This is a radically different interpretation of readied actions than what we've been using in any game I've played in.

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

I may, for example, want to cast "feeblemind" on the next person who comes through the door: I expect it to be the deadly wizard Dastardly Dan, and I'd rather catch him before he gets off his Horrid Wilting spell.

He's planning on using his MEA to open the door and then casting his Horrid Wilting spell.

Well, if he did not actually come through the door, then no he does not fulfill the condition for the trigger.

 

[Pielorinho]

No, he is invisible when he starts to move.

Woohoo! I was just about to feel bad for engaging in this long hijack on readied actions, and then you said this.

So in that particular example (Bob attacks, Liza casts invisibility, Bob moves), you believe that the ogre's ability to see Bob changes in the middle of an action. Not a full-attack action, but an action nonetheless.

Am I right, then in thinking that you think ability to see an opponent can change in the other direction in the middle of an action? For example, an invisible Bob attacks an ogre and then moves back 30': you'd say that Bob's attack is a sneak-attack, but that the ogre gets an attack of opportunity, right?

Whereas if Bob took a full-attack action with his shortbow, firing twice at the ogre from 5' away, both attacks would be sneak attacks and the ogre wouldn't get an attack of opportunity, right?

It's a bizarre ruling to me, and I have real trouble imagining how it would look. And I think it's contradicted by the rules. But at least, if you'd rule these ways, I think you'd be consistent.

 

[Pielorinho]

Well, if he did not actually come through the door, then no he does not fulfill the condition for the trigger.

??

I think you and artoomis are arguing two separate things, or else I'm not understanding Artoomis' position. My questions was whether a readied action could go off after the MEA (opening the door) and before the casting of Horrid Wilting. My understanding of Artoomis' "no interrupting an action" argument was that he wouldn't allow such a readied action, and I was whining about that.

It sounds to me like you WOULD allow a readied action to go off between an MEA and a (for example) spellcasting. So I'm not whining at you about that.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

As stated, that is patently false. A standard action is an "action", but a readied action can occur during a standard aciton. Heck, it can even occur during the move portion of a standard action.

Alice readies an action to swing at Bob if Bob enters her threatened square. Bob starts his standard action by moving next to Alice. Alice swings. But wait! Bob isn't done moving. He continues to move next to Corwin and then attacks Corwin. (Alice holds her AoO for later--just to make things simple.)

What happened? The ready action interrupted the standard action of which was a "move + attack". The ready action interrupted the move portion of the standard action. Unless this is an invalid example, then I do not see how a readied action cannot interrupt a full-attack action if it can interrupt a standard action and a move-portion of an action.

/ds

I'll comment, even if AGGEMAM won't

Let's review what a readied action is, first:

Specify the partial action a combatant will take and the conditions under which it will be taken. When those conditions are met, the combatant may take the readied partial action. The partial action comes before the action that triggers it.

The partial action comes before the action that triggers it. That implies that a "condition" must be based upon some action.

In your example, the condition is base upon Bob's movement. thus, Alice may act just before Bob's action - which, in this case, is his movement (not his movement into her square, as that is only part of his movment action).

Note that the movement part of a standard action might not technically be an action, but if it was replaced with a move-equivalent action it would be, so I think it's pretty safe to count it as an action for this purpose.

Anyway, so in your example you condition is over-specific.

 

[doktorstick]

Since you obviously did not read the above posts I was replying to, I will not bother to comment.

No. I replied to your post, which unless you are just writing words for giggles, is sufficient enough to disagree with your claims (even though I may be wrong).

/ds

 

[Pielorinho]

I'll comment, even if AGGEMAM won't

Let's review what a readied action is, first:



The partial action comes before the action that triggers it. That implies that a "condition" must be based upon some action.

I guess my problem might hinge on what I consider to be terrible phrasing. I might ready an action to magic-missile the first opponent that comes within range. Then Zork the Orc takes an MEA which brings him within range; according to the rules, my Magic Missile spell goes off *before* he comes within range. How does that work?

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

So in that particular example (Bob attacks, Liza casts invisibility, Bob moves), you believe that the ogre's ability to see Bob changes in the middle of an action. Not a full-attack action, but an action nonetheless.

Actually between two actions.

Am I right, then in thinking that you think ability to see an opponent can change in the other direction in the middle of an action?

No, between actions, yes.

For example, an invisible Bob attacks an ogre and then moves back 30': you'd say that Bob's attack is a sneak-attack, but that the ogre gets an attack of opportunity, right?

No. (Explained later).

Whereas if Bob took a full-attack action with his shortbow, firing twice at the ogre from 5' away, both attacks would be sneak attacks and the ogre wouldn't get an attack of opportunity, right?

Yes.

(Explanation: You are not invisible when you attack, note that invisibility states '...The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.', that precludes the attack, ie the invisibility spell disappears before the attack, but that does not change the fact that you took the opponent by surprise, thereby negating the dex bonus.)

EDIT AND DISCLAIMER: I am not totally this is 'by the book', but that is how I see it, and rule it, and I am 99% sure I am correct.

 

[doktorstick]

The partial action comes before the action that triggers it. That implies that a "condition" must be based upon some action.

Ahh. OK.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Nevermind