Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Pielorinho]

(Explanation: You are not invisible when you attack, note that invisibility states '...The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.', that precludes the attack, ie the invisibility spell disappears before the attack, but that does not change the fact that you took the opponent by surprise, thereby negating the dex bonus.) [/B]

Eh? You don't negate a dex bonus in this case by taking the opponent by surprise. You negate a dex bonus in this case by being invisible. Those are two different things.

Given that, does your answer change?

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

Eh? You don't negate a dex bonus in this case by taking the opponent by surprise.

Yes, you do, sort of see later.

Check the PHB, page 132, table 8-8. Or here:

From the SRD

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers

Circumstance Melee Ranged
------------ ----- ------
Defender
surprised or
flat-footed +0*** +0***

***The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC.

So your first attack action would have the +2 bonus, an extra partial attack action would not, but the opponent would be denied dex (towards you) for your entire turn

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, you do.

Check the PHB, page 132, table 8-8. Or here:



So your first attack action would have the +2 bonus, an extra partial attack action would not, but the opponent would be denied dex (towards you) for your entire turn

Flat-footed has nothing to do with having an invisible opponent -- care to quote me something suggesting otherwise?

They have some similar effects, but that's it -- they're different conditions.

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

They have some similar effects, but that's it -- they're different conditions.

It is not flat-footed. Flat-footed and surprised is two different conditions.

Anyways that is the way I see it.

EDIT: Please note, that I only consider the surprised condition to be fulfilled the first time the invisible attacker attacks, after that, even he turns invisible again, the opponent does not suffer the surprised condition, since he is now aware of the now-not-invisible person and thus the opponent would if the invisble attacker turn invisible again, only be denied dex for the first attack action.

 

[doktorstick]

Let's review what a readied action is, first:

"Specify the partial action a combatant will take and the conditions under which it will be taken. When those conditions are met, the combatant may take the readied partial action. The partial action comes before the action that triggers it."

Anyway, so in your example you condition is over-specific.

The PHB pg. 134 uses an example in "How Readying Works". Both Tordek and Mialee specify specifics on the move-portion of the action. Mialee specifies that she will cast charm person when an orc gets at 25 ft. Tordek specifies that he will attack a foe that comes into an area he threatens.

Based on this, I think my previous contrived example may have been technically correct.

Secondly, I do not find anything under the Ready section of the PHB that says you can't be over-specific. In fact, by being overly specific you could lose your readied action.

In the case of a previous posters scenerio of casting invisibility on someone "before their next attack after a missed attack" would be a specific case and presumably allowed.

/ds

 

[Pielorinho]

It is not flat-footed. Flat-footed and surprised is two different conditions.

Anyways that is the way I see it.

EDIT: Please note, that I only consider the surprised condition to be fulfilled the first time the invisible attacker attacks, after that, even he turns invisible again, the opponent does not suffer the surprised condition, since he is now aware of the now-not-invisible person and thus the opponent would if the invisble attacker turn invisible again, only be denied dex for the first attack action.

Again, ???

There's no such thing as a "surprised condition." There's the surprise round, which occurs prior to the first regular round of combat, and consists of a partial action for everyone that's aware of their opponents. Again, it has nothing to do with invisibility, except that if you're invisible *prior* to the start of combat, it makes it easier to surprise your opponent.

Again, you're confusing things. Invisibility, flatfootedness, and the surprise round are different parts of the game. All of them may deny you your dex bonus, but for different reasons.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

from the SRD descriptions of conditions:

Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Invisible
Visually undetectable. Invisible creatures gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and negate Dexterity bonuses to their opponents' AC.

Surprised
Not listed anywhere in this document

As you can see, these are different conditions.
Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

This is a tactical call, not a rules-call, I think -- although you may be making two separate points here.

I may, for example, want to cast "feeblemind" on the next person who comes through the door: I expect it to be the deadly wizard Dastardly Dan, and I'd rather catch him before he gets off his Horrid Wilting spell.

He's planning on using his MEA to open the door and then casting his Horrid Wilting spell.

Are you telling me that I can't possibly cast feeblemind before he gets his spell off?

This is a radically different interpretation of readied actions than what we've been using in any game I've played in.

Daniel

Certainly you can do what you want here. But your "condition" is wrong - you are not readying an action for after he bursts through the door, you are readying an action for after he bursts through the door, but to prevent him from casting a spell. Perfectly legal - providing the condition is something like, "I ready a action to attack whoever comes through teh door before they can do anything else." A bit general, but I'd allow it.

 

[Artoomis]

The PHB pg. 134 uses an example in "How Readying Works". Both Tordek and Mialee specify specifics on the move-portion of the action. Mialee specifies that she will cast charm person when an orc gets at 25 ft. Tordek specifies that he will attack a foe that comes into an area he threatens.

Based on this, I think my previous contrived example may have been technically correct.

Secondly, I do not find anything under the Ready section of the PHB that says you can't be over-specific. In fact, by being overly specific you could lose your readied action.

In the case of a previous posters scenerio of casting invisibility on someone "before their next attack after a missed attack" would be a specific case and presumably allowed.

/ds

You need to also look at the DMG. I need to review it also, before saying more on this topic.

 

[Petrosian]

"The partial action comes before the action that triggers it."

Hostile reading: reading a passage so as to find a way to construe it into something that makes no sense.

Does the above quote mean to you that the readied partial actions BEGINS, is executed, and ENDS before the triggering event ever BEGINS?

it doesn't say that clearly and explicitly. It could be.

Does the above quote mean the readied event begins after the trigger begins, but then is executed and is completed (the effect/result comes into effect) before the trigger is?

it doesn't say that clearly and explicitly. It could be.

So what do intelligent people do when a wording issue is not absolutely clear, they read around it looking for...

wait for it...

it is the magic ky jelly that make language work with less pain...

give me a ...C
give me a ...O
give me a ...N
give me a ...T
give me a ...E
give me a ...X
give me a ...T

Whadda we have...

CONTEXT

looking thru the other readied rules, we find... they mention interrupting spells, counterspelling, etc.

In general, the use of readied action is pretty much to INTERRUPT another's action.

That fits VERy clealry context wise with the second reading...

if you want to ignore the context, to add in on your own "the entire beginning middle and end" to the first read and in the proces buy yourself a whole lot of time travel action starting nonsense... be my guest.

To me, and to everyone i know (other than perhaps when they lose themselves in semantics debates) who has read it, the meaning, IN CONTEXT, of that sentence is clear.

your mileage may vary...

however, our language was never intended to be read WITHOUT context.

I will now take a bow.

Those of you who are contextually challenged now have no clue whether i just swiped the front of a boat, whether i took a present garnishing tied ribbon, or whether i just performed an end-of-performance salute.

Thats not my problem.