Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Mr.Binx]

The DMG states that readied actions should not be used outside of combat.

And indeed what if all of these things were happening during combat? So you're saying you couldn't ready an action to jump on the first log that flies by in a rapid river to escape the troll that's on your heels?

 

[Artoomis]

Again, I don't think this works -- or if it does, it renders the word "before" meaningless. If your trigger is ever "after X happens and before anything else happens," then the "before anything else happens" in no way narrows the circumstances in which your trigger goes off. It is meaningless as part of the conditions that should be satisfied, and your trigger is absolutely equal to "after X happens."

In any case, this doesn't answer my question. If you can ready an action for when the rogue appears, then your trigger is something other than a combatant's action. Which is what I'm saying should be allowed, and what I thought you were saying shouldn't be allowed.

Daniel

Actually, what I am now saying is that it's allowed, sort of. The "sort of" is the technicality that you are not acting after the rogue appears, but before the wizard (or whoever) acts.

Yes, it's a technicality, but a needed one. Why?

Ready: Act before something (interrupt/prevent an action) with a partial action.

Delay: Act after something (anytime you want) with your full actions.

You might even allow a Delayed action to happen BETWEEN when a rogue appars and the wizard acts, since the rogue appears just before the wizard's turn, when the spell expires. It's a bit of a stretch, though.

 

[Artoomis]

Ok, we'll go simple for ya' here. You ready an action to fire an arrow at the first leave that falls off of a tree during combat because you're bored or drunk while everyone else fights. What initiative does this occur on?

Whenever the DM says, but it's not a READIED ACTION - it's more like a DELAY - you fire AFTER the leaf starts falling, not to somehow try and interrupt it or prevent it from falling.

What it realy is is SILLY.

 

[LokiDR]

Actually, what I am now saying is that it's allowed, sort of. The "sort of" is the technicality that you are not acting after the rogue appears, but before the wizard (or whoever) acts.

Yes, it's a technicality, but a needed one. Why?

Ready: Act before something (interrupt/prevent an action) with a partial action.

Delay: Act after something (anytime you want) with your full actions.

You might even allow a Delayed action to happen BETWEEN when a rogue appars and the wizard acts, since the rogue appears just before the wizard's turn, when the spell expires. It's a bit of a stretch, though.

Artoonis, you seem hung up on this "before" word. Does it make more logical sense, for a general ready action, to act "during" oppent actions? Like the DMG example, you shoot while they are moving, just as they come through the door.

 

[doktorstick]

Whenever the DM says, but it's not a READIED ACTION - it's more like a DELAY - you fire AFTER the leaf starts falling, not to somehow try and interrupt it or prevent it from falling.

How do you reconcile that with interrupting casting? You can't divine when the spellcaster is going start casting. He actually has to be casting. In this case, it would be a delay action (as per what you just said about this example). The spell would already be cast by time you act.

/ds

 

[Pielorinho]

Actually, what I am now saying is that it's allowed, sort of. The "sort of" is the technicality that you are not acting after the rogue appears, but before the wizard (or whoever) acts.

Yes, it's a technicality, but a needed one. Why?
[/i]

Okey dokey . Let's go back to the original example.

Bob, Liza, and unnamed compatriots are fighting an ogre. Liza figures that some of her wussy companions might need help in the fight. She readies an action: "I'll cast invisibility on the first of my companions that misses an attack against the ogre, after s/he misses with an attack but before anything else happens."

Bob, using the full attack action, swings and misses and gets ready to swing again.

Does Liza's spell go off?

I'll think it mighty strange if her spell can't go off in between attacks in a full-attack action, but could go off during (for example) the standard-action casting of a Horrid Wilting spell by an enemy wizard.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Artoonis, I think I am with Pielorinho. Didn't you say that this is exactly what you couldn't do?

If I follow your reasoning, the oger can attack just after the rogue attacks, in that example some number of posts back.

The example was the rogue invisble with a full attack routine, right?

I say:

Ogre readies action - he wants to attack the rogue when he appears. The DM must interpret that wihtin the rules and figure out what to do.

1. He can't, technically, attack as soon as the rogue appears. The rogue appears while he is attacking.

2. He could, though, attack just before the rogue attacks, maybe. It's a bit tricky, from a rules perspective, but you might allow him to attack even as the rogue is beginning his swing an turning visible.

The effect is pretty much the same, but it's the logic that is important. if you cannot make it fit within a readied action somehow, then it can't be one.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Whenever the DM says, but it's not a READIED ACTION - it's more like a DELAY - you fire AFTER the leaf starts falling, not to somehow try and interrupt it or prevent it from falling.

So when I say "I will shoot the first spellcaster that begins casting a spell" it's a readied action and when I say "I will shoot the first leaf that falls off of a tree" it's a delayed action? This is purely a battle of semantics.

Ok, take a step back and breathe here. I know everyone has their ideas that they tend to defend like children. No one is going to agree on everything.

All in all, printed and unprinted rules aside the idea behind readying an action is that you specify some event or condition that occurs and triggers your previously specified partial action immediately on that iniative phase when the event or condition occured.

Tell me your disagreements with the previous paragraph and work from there.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'll think it mighty strange if her spell can't go off in between attacks in a full-attack action, but could go off during (for example) the standard-action casting of a Horrid Wilting spell by an enemy wizard.

Daniel

Or, I should add, between the 15' and 20' of the 30' movement taken by a charging orc. If you can act partway through someone's movement action (to cast a spell at them as they come into range), you should be able to act partway through someone's full-attack action (to cast a spell at them after they've made one attack).

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Okey dokey . Let's go back to the original example.

Bob, Liza, and unnamed compatriots are fighting an ogre. Liza figures that some of her wussy companions might need help in the fight. She readies an action: "I'll cast invisibility on the first of my companions that misses an attack against the ogre, after s/he misses with an attack but before anything else happens."

Bob, using the full attack action, swings and misses and gets ready to swing again.

Does Liza's spell go off?

I'll think it mighty strange if her spell can't go off in between attacks in a full-attack action, but could go off during (for example) the standard-action casting of a Horrid Wilting spell by an enemy wizard.

Daniel

This does not work. Either she has to decide to cast the spell when her companion attacks, or not. Since a readied action goes off just before the action in question, she can't wait for the results of the action to decide what to do.

A "miss" is not an action. An "attack" is an action.

Just as she acts before the Horrid Wilting spell is complete, she must act before the attack is complete - that is, before it's results are known.