Sneak Attacks on Rays

[LokiDR]

The example was the rogue invisble with a full attack routine, right?

I say:

Ogre readies action - he wants to attack the rogue when he appears. The DM must interpret that wihtin the rules and figure out what to do.

1. He can't, technically, attack as soon as the rogue appears. The rogue appears while he is attacking.

2. He could, though, attack just before the rogue attacks, maybe. It's a bit tricky, from a rules perspective, but you might allow him to attack even as the rogue is beginning his swing an turning visible.

The effect is pretty much the same, but it's the logic that is important. if you cannot make it fit within a readied action somehow, then it can't be one.

I think you are hung on that "before" word again. Obviously the oger can't attack the invisible person before the attack, oger doesn't know rogue is there. As soon as he can, the oger attackes, which would be after he took his damage. If readied actions happen at the same time as the trigger, this works. If you say they happen at the same time, then this works. Else the oger can kill low hp rogue without taking any damage.

PS. Why does this remind me of playing Magic: The Gathering?

 

[Pielorinho]

This does not work. Either she has to decide to cast the spell when her companion attacks, or not. Since a readied action goes off just before the action in question, she can't wait for the results of the action to decide what to do.

A "miss" is not an action. An "attack" is an action.

Just as she acts before the Horrid Wilting spell is complete, she must act before the attack is complete - that is, before it's results are known.

No, she's acting after he misses, but BEFORE anything else happens. This is the technicality that you said I could take advantage of, yes?

And a "miss" isn't an action but neither is an "appears," as happens in the example with the expiring spell.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

PS. Why does this remind me of playing Magic: The Gathering?

I was thinking exactly the same thing! I remember how horribly confusing the rules were for instant vs. interrupt vs. sorcery etc. in M:tG, and when 3E came out, I remember being so relieved at how much they'd simplified that kind of thing.

Silly me...

Anyway, it's off to the library for me, so my part in this breakneck-speed posting is done for awhile at least; I'll stop in this thread later tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks all for the great discussion, especially Artoomis!

Daniel

 

[LokiDR]

This does not work. Either she has to decide to cast the spell when her companion attacks, or not. Since a readied action goes off just before the action in question, she can't wait for the results of the action to decide what to do.

A "miss" is not an action. An "attack" is an action.

Just as she acts before the Horrid Wilting spell is complete, she must act before the attack is complete - that is, before it's results are known.

On this, I agree. You can't ready for some result, only an action. "I cast invis on the ally who is visible in combat with the oger" would work as advertised though.

 

[Pielorinho]

On this, I agree. You can't ready for some result, only an action.

Sure you can. "I attack the first person that bursts through that door" goes off when someone comes successfully through the door, not when somebody attempts to break the door down.

Daniel

 

[Artoomis]

Or, I should add, between the 15' and 20' of the 30' movement taken by a charging orc. If you can act partway through someone's movement action (to cast a spell at them as they come into range), you should be able to act partway through someone's full-attack action (to cast a spell at them after they've made one attack).

Daniel

I understand where you are coming from, but it's not the same thing.

The results of an attack are not known like you seem to imply - teh attack lasts who knows how much of the whole round, and consists of feints, etc. You can't know he's missed with the first chance and hit with the second - that just plain does not make sense within the D&D system. The charcer can't even know, until the end of the round, that he's missed - the earlier "miss" could just as easily been some sort of feint to set up a killing blow. You can know he's attacking, though.

Movement is really different Heck, the move with a standard action isn't really it's own action, but it can be treated that way.

Anyway, casting a spell or shooting an arrow at a certain range clearly fits within the intent of a Readied action, even if not within the very strict letter of the rule. Interrputing a full attcak action in the middle just does not seem to fit wihtint that intent at all, and does not really make sense anyway, as I poitned out above.

 

[Artoomis]

No, she's acting after he misses, but BEFORE anything else happens. This is the technicality that you said I could take advantage of, yes?

And a "miss" isn't an action but neither is an "appears," as happens in the example with the expiring spell.

Daniel

The BEFORE is BEFORE an ACTION, not part of an action.

 

[Pielorinho]

I understand where you are coming from, but it's not the same thing.

The results of an attack are not known like you seem to imply - teh attack lasts who knows how much of the whole round, and consists of feints, etc. You can't know he's missed with the first chance and hit with the second - that just plain does not make sense within the D&D system. The charcer can't even know, until the end of the round, that he's missed - the earlier "miss" could just as easily been some sort of feint to set up a killing blow. You can know he's attacking, though.

Fine -- Liza favors winners, not losers. She casts it on the first of her companions who SUCCESSFULLY attacks the ogre. Now can it work?

Daniel
getting out of here for real now

 

[Artoomis]

Sure you can. "I attack the first person that bursts through that door" goes off when someone comes successfully through the door, not when somebody attempts to break the door down.

Daniel

Actually, it happens just before he moves - asssuming:

An MEA to burst the door open. Then a move. The readied action is really to attack wehn he moves after opening the door (or otherwise acts, I suppose.) If he opens teh dor and does nothing, you get no chance to attack until yout turn, since a readied action allows you to act BEFORE his action.

I might allow this one anyway, as being eminately reasonable, though technically flawed. At least you do have a good solid intiative to use to set yours against.

 

[Artoomis]

Fine -- Liza favors winners, not losers. She casts it on the first of her companions who SUCCESSFULLY attacks the ogre. Now can it work?

Daniel
getting out of here for real now

ROFL.

No, same problem, really. You need an action, not the results of an action.

Heck, I might allow it anyway.