Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Storm Raven]

Great. So now a stat. draining spell potentially does damage, a rogue/mage has a better control over his magic than a straight (and higher caster-level) mage, and I should stop DM'ing.

No, since the rogue/mage has a lower caster level than the straight wizard, meaning that the base power of the rogue/mage's spells is generally going to be significantly less.

The reason you should stop DMing is that you didn't figure this out on your own.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Ok, thanks for the clarification aggemam. I understand now.

You are very welcome, Nvvyn, I hope you have no hard feelings, I certainly have not.

Btw, provoking somebody a little is an old psychology trick, it improves the rational thinking. However, provoking to much hinders it.

 

[drowdude]

Btw, provoking somebody a little is an old psychology trick, it improves the rational thinking. However, provoking to much hinders it.

Thats a funny way of saying "I did it for your own good!"

 

[Nvvyn]

Nope, no hard feelings, I do so love a heated discussion, especially with the conclusion being that I learn something new.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Thats a funny way of saying "I did it for your own good!"

Yeah, do not try this trick at your local bar, I am not in the mood for some liability lawsuits.

 

[Artoomis]

No, since the rogue/mage has a lower caster level than the straight wizard, meaning that the base power of the rogue/mage's spells is generally going to be significantly less.

The reason you should stop DMing is that you didn't figure this out on your own.

Once again, I urge you to ease up a bit. Harsh comments like these are simply not needed or appropriate.

The rogue/mage can, under very specific and limited circumstances, do more damage with a touch (or ranged touch) attack spell.

Of course, how much will depend upon how many rogue levels he's got. More rogue sneak attack damage = less mage power, which in turn means fewer and lower level spells.

Also, this is restricted to only when the bad guy has no Dex bonus or (for touch attacks in melee only) is flanked.

Relax. This won't unbalance your game. It may seem really powerful, but if you compare it to a pure wizard or pure rogue, you'll see that the single-class character pretty much wins out every time.

Your player has created a sort of one-trick pony. No big deal, really. He won't always be able to use his little trick, and he'll run out of spells soon enough anyway, especially if they have to face more than one encounter in a day.

Sure - he can use a wand for this. So can a pure rogue with Use Magic Device - it's DC 20 - not too easy, not too hard, really. He sidesteps that by taking a level of wizard. Okay, a fair trade-off. And, unless he takes a fair number of Wizard levels (at least 5), he won't be making his own wands.

Relax - use the rules as written if you can. Only vary from them if:

1. You really, really hate the rule as written.
2. The rule is a bit vague as to how it works.

Do that, and your players will thank you.

 

[dead_radish]

Here's what I have issue with - by taking a single level of sorceror (and, say, getting a wand of ray of frost 5/day, which they can now use without UMD), a rogue (Looking at this from the rogue side, not the wiz side, as no spellslinger should mc) significantly improves his sneak attack ability, at the cost of 1 level. It is now a ranged touch attack, which is a huge improved over a ranged sneak attack (ignores armor. Most humanoids gets the majority of their AC from armor/shields, not dex) in many cases. They also gain the ability to do sneak damage in many many forms - this example is cold, which bypasses physical damage resistance, and things like stoneskin. The ability to do elemental ranged touch attacks vs. daggers is significant to me. To gain that improvement, they have lost a single rogue level, and they also gained the ability to cast a few other spells if need be, and possibly scribe scrolls, gained a +2 will save, _and_ a familiar. Wow. That's a nice bonus.

Further, any rogue with UMD and a ray of frost can do this. And not lose _any_ levels of rogue effectiveness. Think of the 10th level rogue, trying to take out a 10th lvl fighter, in his breastplate +3, wielding a dancing shield +2 and a +2 Greatsword. Ranged touch vs ranged? Of course he'll pick up a couple ray of frost 3/day wands! He'll carry a stash of arrows to shoot at the high dex characters, so that he can do more attacks, each of which can sneak, and he'll have the rays, which will hit much better. He's all the more effective.

And here's a horrible thought, which I am being faced with in an FR campaign - spellfire sneak attacks.

Eugh.

 

[Artoomis]

Ranged Sneak Attacks really don't come up that often - your opponent must be denied his Dex boinus, which normally doesn't happen all that often - and, usually, if it does happen, he's in far more trouble than from the sneak attack.

Sneak Attacks happen far more often from flanking.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Once again, I urge you to ease up a bit. Harsh comments like these are simply not needed or appropriate.

Man, that sounds exactly like what my 3rd grade teacher, mrs Onsberg, used to say to me.

Actually, they all used to say that, oh well ..

 

[dead_radish]

Bluff. Quicker than the eye. Hide. Hide in plain sight. Invisiblity. Improved invisibility.

If a rogue is built for ranged sneak attacks, they happen a lot. They go shadow dancer, or they pump their bluff skill, or they get QttE (a wonderful little feat). And they convince the party mage to improved invis them a lot.

It's enough of a problem to worry about. And besides, it's that first hit that matters - if I do d3+4d6 sneak damage the first shot, and then do that again on the next round against the heavily armored fighter before his init (which is nearly guarenteed to hit his 12 touch ac), he's either dead, or nearly so. I don't need to do it repeatedly in combat. I just need to do it at the start. Which is then the end.