Sneak Attacks on Rays

[Pielorinho]

Caliban and kreynolds,

I found this interesting peace of info in the FAQ

Note that in earlier versions of the game only the first
attack a rogue made in a round could be a sneak attack. That is
no longer the case.

This basically says, "It is not the case that only the first attack a rogue makes in a round can be a sneak attack."

In other words, "Attacks other than the first attack a rogue makes in a round can be sneak attacks."

Are you claiming that it means, "if any attack a rogue makes in a round is a sneak attack, all attacks a rogue makes in a round are sneak attacks"?

I don't see how you derive the last statement from the FAQ. Just because subsequent attacks CAN be sneak attacks, if they meet the criteria for sneak attacks, doesn't mean they are ALWAYS sneak attacks, whether or not they meet the criteria.

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

Pielorinho,

you have to considered why only the first attack in a round could be a sneak attack before.

I believe it was because the subjects dex bonus to AC returned after the first attack, meaning they where no longer 'surprised' after the first attack.

This is what I believe it says, YMMV.

 

[Pielorinho]

Pielorinho,

you have to considered why only the first attack in a round could be a sneak attack before.

I believe it was because the subjects dex bonus to AC returned after the first attack, meaning they where no longer 'surprised' after the first attack.

This is what I believe it says, YMMV.

Well, it simply doesn't say that. It doesn't mention anything whatsoever about whether a dex bonus returns after the first attack. Considering that the question is regarding flanking, it would be weird for the answer to talk about whether a dex bonus can become "undenied" in the middle of a round.

What the answer does, in response to a question about flanking, is reiterate all conditions under which a sneak attack may be dealt.

If you think this answer deals with whether a dex bonus can become undenied in the middle of combat, you're reading entire paragraphs into the answer that simply aren't there. You may be correct about the point, but you're not correct that this answer from the FAQ supports you.

Daniel

 

[AGGEMAM]

That is why I wrote, YMMV, you say it says one thing, while I say it implies another.

 

[Artoomis]

That is why I wrote, YMMV, you say it says one thing, while I say it implies another.

Sorry AGGEMAM, this time your just wrong :

Say a rogue attempts to perform a sneak attack on a
target and the target is flanked and engaged with another
character, but aware of the rogue. Does the rogue get the
extra damage dice for the sneak attack? My DM believes
that a foe who is aware of the rogue can protect herself and
is not subject to sneak attacks. I disagree.
Whenever a rogue attacks an opponent that the rogue flanks,
or who is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (such as when caught
flat-footed), the rogue’s attack is a sneak attack. It makes no
difference how many attacks the rogue makes or whether the
opponent is aware of the rogue or not. (Note that opponents
who are not subject to critical hits, such as constructs,
elementals, oozes, plants, and undead, are not subject to sneak
attacks.) Note that in earlier versions of the game only the first
attack a rogue made in a round could be a sneak attack. That is
no longer the case.

The itialized portion implies nothing, really about whether rogue's sneak attacks apply after the first blow if he started invisible. One of the preceding sentences is the really key one:

...Whenever a rogue attacks an opponent that the rogue flanks, or who is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (such as when caught flat-footed), the rogue’s attack is a sneak attack....

The question remains: does an opponent regain his dex bonus when the rogue turns visible after his first attack? The italized portion does not help settle this isue at all.

A shame, really, because it looks like it might at first, but it just does not.

Thus, two questions still remain to be definitively answered:

If you start out invisible, do you:

1. Turn visible after your first attack, or after your entire attack routine (or both attacks, if hasted, I suppose)

AND

2. If you do turn visisble after your first attack, does you opponent regain his dex bonus as soon as you are visisble, or not until his turn?

The quoted text above does not help answer either question.

I think the answer is that you turn visible after your first attack, and thus at that point your opponent is no longer denied his dex baonus against you, so you can't sneak attack any more. This is a matter of opinion and rules interpretation, though, it's not completely clear as written.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I think one of the other key sentence is:

...It makes no difference how many attacks the rogue makes or whether the opponent is aware of the rogue or not...

 

[doktorstick]

Find something that supports it. The rules only allow for suprise at the beginning of combat. It's called the suprise round, and there is absolutely no provision for it occuring at any other time.

The only thing I can find remotely similar is when newcomers stumble into a combat and are unaware. They may be considered flat-footed--a condition normally applied to the start of combat. Since it is _their_ start of combat, I guess this is why they can be flat-footed.

FWIW, the suprise round is variant rule (DMG pg. 61-62).

/ds

 

[doktorstick]

My interpretation has been this, and is not changed at all by the unofficial statement above.

If you attack while invisible, you become imediatley visible, on your FIRST attack.

You still get all flanking bonuses, because you cannot react to something like that unless it is your turn. Look at any free action, getting out of being flat footed, ect.

I don't think that is right. I had asked about a condition where a rogue was outside the light radius of a character. In other words, the character has no clue where the rogue is. If the rogue shot arrows at the character, the character would be denied his Dexterity bonus. However, if the rogue moved through the light to get to the character for a melee sneak attack, the character would see him and have his Dexterity bonus. I originally thought like you did, but was overwhelmingly corrected by several of the more respected members.

In short, characters do react to you during your action (standard or otherwise). Because of this "ruling" by the board members, I run invisibility such that once you make a single attack, you become visible.

I find it odd that one of the folk (IIRC) who set me straight in the aforementioned scenario thinks that invisibility should last through a character's entire attack action. Perhaps because it is magic, afterall.

/ds

 

[Pielorinho]

I think one of the other key sentence is:
...It makes no difference how many attacks the rogue makes or whether the opponent is aware of the rogue or not...

Again, you're incorrect here. Invisibility doesn't work because the opponent is unaware of the rogue: it works because the opponent can't see the rogue, as detailed in the invisibility rules. This sentence is here because the question was whether a flanked opponent who was aware of the rogue could be sneak attacked.

"YMMV" applies when you say, for example, that D&D is a tactical game, not a game of high art. That's a matter of opinion. In this case, these words have a clear meaning in English, and it's not the meaning you're ascribing to them.

As Artoomis pointed out, the clause you quoted is interesting, but it does not bear directly on the question at hand. Not in English, anyway.

Daniel

(PS If you're not a native English speaker, please understand I'm not attacking you for that: I'm just making a snarky point that in, for example, Venusian, the words may have the meaning you're ascribing to them )

 

[kreynolds]

I find it odd that one of the folk (IIRC) who set me straight in the aforementioned scenario thinks that invisibility should last through a character's entire attack action.

Out of curiosity, was it AGGEMAM that original convinced you? I remember that thread, but I don't remember the specifics of it.