Sneak Peek At Ghosts of Saltmarsh Maps

Here's a sneak peek at some of the maps to be found in the upcoming D&D Ghosts of Saltmarsh, courtesy of WotC's Twitch stream.


ghost_saltmarsh.jpg



And Dyson Logos, one of the cartographers for the book, has shared some of his work which will be appearing!



D1WNe3OWsAU8xwR.jpg


D1WNe3NWoAIjD-j.jpg
 
Russ Morrissey

Comments

Hussar

Legend
LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.

Anyway, like I said, this has got to be the absolute weirdest conversation I've ever had on En World.

[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

[MENTION=6855149]Prakriti[/MENTION] - WTF? Scary/foreign/unusual? Ooookay.

I'll note that not a single person here who is so adamant to prove me wrong has taken up my challenge. C'mon, let's see these examples of RPG books where the majority of maps are not north to the top. Should be easy peasy for smart folks like you. You seem to be so sure that north to the top isn't typical or usual, so, let's get those examples rolling in. It's easy to make unsubstantiated claims and whatnot. Time to pee or get off the pot. Give me a SINGLE example of an RPG product where the majority of the maps is not oriented north to the top.

 
LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.

Anyway, like I said, this has got to be the absolute weirdest conversation I've ever had on En World.

[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.

[MENTION=6855149]Prakriti[/MENTION] - WTF? Scary/foreign/unusual? Ooookay.

I'll note that not a single person here who is so adamant to prove me wrong has taken up my challenge.
It's not about proving anyone right or wrong (since clearly you are prone to exaggeration). It is that you are so adamant in your pendantry that it is redictulous.

Yes, lots of maps are oriented with North at "the top". However, lots of maps aren't. This "norm" you are so pedantic about is weird to anyone that studies history. Basically it shows how pervasive Google maps are and how some people are so easily manipulated into believing "THE TRUTH" instead of accepting that not ever convention works for every application. I would much prefer that map makers make best use of the medium and the space they have than conform to some arbitrary convention that is your personal hobgoblin.

A rosette is enough of an indicator.

Here are some ideas to chew on:

The biggest factors that contribute to north being commonly placed at the top of a map include the invention of the compass and the understanding of magnetic north and the egocentricity of society, mainly in Europe.

In the history of mapmaking, the general rule of thumb is whoever made the map is probably at the center or the top of it.

Many cartographers show what they want to be the focus at the top of the map, and, therefore, influence the orientation of the map.

Basically your north at the top bias is just that -- a personal bias.
 

Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.
Link? I'd have to scan the bloody things! If I even still had them—they're from the 80s. But, yeah, if you're so incredulous that they'd have maps of the U.S., Canada, Eutope, etc. fit the page rather than have North oriented to the top than go to a library where they may have some older atlases lying around and look at them.
 
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Azzy

Cyclone Ranger
[MENTION=6563]Azzy[/MENTION] - you have not one, but actually multiple atlases where most of the maps in the atlas are not north to the top? Link please? Because, well, buddy, you found the unicorn. I'm not saying no map is ever done that way. I'm saying it's very, very much an outlier to not do them that way.
Link? I'd have to scan the bloody things! If I even still had them—they're from the 80s. But, yeah, if you're so incredulous that they'd have maps of the U.S., Canada, Eutope, etc. fit the page rather than have North oriented to the top than go to a library where they may have some older atlases lying around and look at them.
 

Hussar

Legend
So you folks read books printed on a Gutenberg press huh? The last three or four hundred years of map making apparently isn’t good enough to set the standard.

Did it used to be different? Sure. No argument. But, again, I’ll be waiting for your Rpg book examples. Still.

I mean if it’s so easy to find examples then show me. I’ll gladly eat crow. Heck the one link to maps so far was 100% wrong. Look at Dyson Logos’ patreon page and you’ll see that his maps are almost always oriented the standard way.

Are there exceptions? Sure. I never said there weren’t. But, there’s no denying that this is the standard.
 

smbakeresq

Explorer
I love reading print books, I own several over 100+ years old. I don’t have a Gutenberg books, I can’t afford them.

As as standards, the vast majority have the rose oriented towards the top of the page with that being north. If a map covers 2 pages and the book is meant to be turned to view the map then it is oriented that way.

The creator of the map and his belief system control this however. It doesn’t really matter unless the orientation of the map itself is trying to tell you something about the beliefs of the creator.
 

lkj

Adventurer
I am largely uninterested in the discussion of whether the orientation of a D&D needs to be north or not . I don't mind one way or the other. Other people do mind. Sort of sums the discussion for me.

But it did get me interested in the topic of why maps through history tended to be oriented as they were. I was fascinated to discover that many maps used to have east at the top. And how compasses led to the frequent modern north orientation (as others mentioned in this thread)

So I thought I'd share this interesting web page on the topic

https://geog.ucsb.edu/why-is-north-up-on-maps/

AD
 
LOL

Look at that thread you posted. Virtually every single map in that thread, nearly all of them, are oriented north to the top. Granted there's no compass rose on most of them, but, then again, lacking a compass rose, the presumption is always north to the top because that's the standard way maps are drawn.
No, they are shown without a compass rose so they can be used in whatever orientation the DM chooses - if it even matters.

The only person "presuming north is at the top" is you.
You keep changing your own argument. First you say "all", then you said "99%", and now you are saying "most". "Most" I agree with. Loose the hyperbole and your argument becomes much stronger.

Give me a SINGLE example of an RPG product where the majority of the maps is not oriented north to the top.
Challenge accepted: https://www.paizo.com/starfinder
 
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Hussar

Legend
No, they are shown without a compass rose so they can be used in whatever orientation the DM chooses - if it even matters.

The only person "presuming north is at the top" is you.

You keep changing your own argument. First you say "all", then you said "99%", and now you are saying "most". "Most" I agree with. Loose the hyperbole and your argument becomes much stronger.


Challenge accepted: https://www.paizo.com/starfinder
No, I never said all. That would be easy to disprove since we have a map that isn't oriented north to the top right here. That would be pretty easy to disprove no?

But, again, look at Dyson Logos' patreon, and you'll see that all those maps are linked together as a larger map, oriented north to the top.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is what you're trying to prove. That most maps aren't oriented north to the top? That there isn't a standard in cartography? What?

Look, my only point at the beginning of all this is that it's annoying when artists decide to get cute and orient maps other than standard for no reason. You still have not provided any reason why this specific map needs to be oriented north to the left. You still have not shown that north to the top isn't the standard for cartography. While the Starfinder Flip maps might not be oriented north to the top, since they're meant to be used that way, I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top. That planetary maps, city maps, overland maps, all of them, will be oriented north to the top.
 
No, I never said all. That would be easy to disprove since we have a map that isn't oriented north to the top right here. That would be pretty easy to disprove no?

But, again, look at Dyson Logos' patreon, and you'll see that all those maps are linked together as a larger map, oriented north to the top.

What I cannot for the life of me understand is what you're trying to prove. That most maps aren't oriented north to the top? That there isn't a standard in cartography? What?

Look, my only point at the beginning of all this is that it's annoying when artists decide to get cute and orient maps other than standard for no reason. You still have not provided any reason why this specific map needs to be oriented north to the left. You still have not shown that north to the top isn't the standard for cartography. While the Starfinder Flip maps might not be oriented north to the top, since they're meant to be used that way, I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top. That planetary maps, city maps, overland maps, all of them, will be oriented north to the top.
I'm trying to prove that you are wrecking what could be a perfectly good point with ranting, hyperbole, lack of empathy and ridiculous assertions, like this one: "I'll bet dollars to donuts that Starfinder adventure maps ARE oriented north to the top." Which way is "north" in space???? (and if you want something D&D, try Planescape. Sigil is shaped something like a donut, and few of the planes it connects to have anything that could be described as "north" either.)


Now I have been known to teach Mathematics, and I have noticed that some students find the topic of "Transformations" (translation, reflection, enlargement etc) very easy, whilst others find it extremely difficult, even with aids like cut out shapes and tracing paper. There are few who fall in the middle, and the trend is the same regardless of if it is a top set or a bottom set. So I am perfectly happy to accept that you find reorienting maps difficult. But the converse is also true: there are some (many) for whom it is trivially easy, and it may not occur to them that for some people it isn't.
 

Hussar

Legend
Whoosh. The sound of a point being missed. Meh.

My point is and always has been, why add a confusing element to a product when there is no reason to.

That you can turn the book is really beside the point.

And, just to add, what ranting or hyperbole? What, that the overwhelming majority of maps, and certainly nearly all RPG maps are drawn north to the top? How is that hyperbole? That's just true. Take a look at a site like cartographersguild.org if you want to see tons of gorgeous (and I do mean gorgeous) fantasy maps. And, again, nearly all of them are oriented north to the top. You want me to say "mostly"? Ok, They are mostly oriented north to the top. Really don't care since the point is, north to the top is pretty much the standard for maps and has been for a couple of hundred years at least.

Plunking down a map in an RPG product that bucks standards for absolutely no reason, is bad design. It's different solely just to be different. It adds nothing to the map and actually does make it (slightly) harder to use. So, again, what is the point of having the map rose orient to the left? What is being gained here?

Is this a major issue? Absolutely not. Is it worth the amount of ink we've gone back and forth here about it? Again, absolutely not.

But, if you're going to accuse me of being unreasonable (ranting and hyperbole) at least have the decency to show any evidence of that. I've been pretty even tempered here. I've presented a mountain of proof - and I can present more if you like. The counter evidence, apparently, is a 40 year old atlas that someone maybe remembers from childhood. :erm: This is just so pointless.

Well played folks. Well played. I bow to your superior abilities here. A round of applause for everyone. Well done you.
 
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My point is and always has been, why add a confusing element to a product when there is no reason to.
And the answer has always been: because they where not aware that it was a confusing element, since they did not themselves find it confusing, and no one had told them it was confusing.

But it appears you would just rather lay into someone, rather than informing them there is a problem so it can be avoided in the future.

But, if you're going to accuse me of being unreasonable (ranting and hyperbole) at least have the decency to show any evidence of that. I've been pretty even tempered here. I've presented a mountain of proof - and I can present more if you like. The counter evidence, apparently, is a 40 year old atlas that someone maybe remembers from childhood. This is just so pointless.
????

I think you have that backwards.

Note: a map without a compass rose is NOT evidence that north is at the top.

You so called evidence seems to be this:

1) North is defined as "the top of the map".

2) 100% of maps have the top at the top.

3) Ergo a map with a compass rose showing north on the right is wrong.


Which is valid logic stemming form a false a priori assumption.

Correct definitions of north:

1) A cardinal point of the compass, lying in the plane of the meridian and to the left of a person facing the rising sun.

2) the direction in which a compass needle normally points.

I can't find any definitions of "north" that mention "the top of a map". (Or definitions of "map" that mention north being at the top for that matter).
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Time to pee or get off the pot.
I pee from above the pot.

I mean, I agree with you about map orientation, but I'm not about to pee sitting on a pot.

Which does cause me to wonder about medieval chamber-pot etiquette. Medieval wives would have had much more to complain about than their husbands leaving the seat up in the days before potty seats.

This thread on Saltmarsh maps has giving me much more food for thought than I expected.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Agreed. I found it interesting that many cultures would have them oriented to the East because that is where the sun rises and were superstitious about not orienting them West, where the sun sets, because that is symbolic of death.

The Chinese apparently always oriented them to North, partly because the Emperor and China needed to be situated on top of vassal Kingdoms, which tend to be more to the south.

Islamic countries often had maps oriented based on the qiblah (towards Mecca).

As far as I know, however, orienting maps North is the current international standard.

I am largely uninterested in the discussion of whether the orientation of a D&D needs to be north or not . I don't mind one way or the other. Other people do mind. Sort of sums the discussion for me.

But it did get me interested in the topic of why maps through history tended to be oriented as they were. I was fascinated to discover that many maps used to have east at the top. And how compasses led to the frequent modern north orientation (as others mentioned in this thread)

So I thought I'd share this interesting web page on the topic

https://geog.ucsb.edu/why-is-north-up-on-maps/

AD
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member

Hey, Farquhar and Hussar, chill the heck out. You are discussing maps in a game about pretending to be elves. There is nothing important enough here to get personal about it all.
 

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